What is it that take birth ?

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SamKR
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by SamKR » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:59 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am
Hello ,

In the paticasamuppada , the Jati link ie birth , referring to what exactly ? Is it birth of a physical body ? A thought take birth ? If it is a thought , it should be at or after sanna link .
Suttas and many related texts are very clear that birth includes birth of a new body (at re-birth). I find it futile to try to explain otherwise. But I would not use the word "physical" because it could be misleading.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:07 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am
The manifestation of the aggregates does seems to include form which is physical .
Only one aggregate from five is physical. Also, the word "manifestation" (pātubhāvo) is not used in physical ways in the suttas. For example:
When [the nature of] things become manifest (pātubhāvo)
To the ardent meditating brahman,
He abides scattering Mara's host
Like the sun illumining the sky.

Ud 1.3 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
When the mind is immersed in samādhi, principles become clear.

Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

Because principles have become clear, they’re reckoned to live diligently.

Dhammānaṃ pātubhāvā appamādavihārītveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati.

SN 55.40 https://suttacentral.net/sn55.40/en/sujato
Licchavis, the appearance of five treasures is rare in the world.

Pañcannaṃ, licchavī, ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What five?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ?

The appearance of a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who explains the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One. ;)

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desetā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who understands the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who practices in line with the teaching.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who is grateful and thankful.

kataññū katavedī puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

AN 5.143 https://suttacentral.net/an5.144/en/sujato
:candle:
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am
Acquisition of the sense fields does include physical properties .
The sense fields are made of twelve dhammas: six internal and six external; two of which are mental.
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am
Various sentient beings in the various orders does referred to physicality .
No.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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pitakele
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by pitakele » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:20 am

According to Buddha, it is the 'mando' (dolt, fool) who is reborn
Again and again, one wearies and trembles;
Again and again, the dolt enters the womb;
Punappunaṃ kilamati phandati ca,
Punappunaṃ gabbhamupeti mando.

Again and again, one is born and dies;
Again and again, they take one to the cemetery.
Punappunaṃ jāyati mīyati ca,
Punappunaṃ sivathikaṃ haranti.


But when one has obtained the path
That leads to no more renewed existence,
Having become broad in wisdom,
One is not born again and again!
Maggañca laddhā apunabbhavāya,
Na punappunaṃ jāyati bhūripañño.

Connected Discourses VII, 12 - Ven. Bodhi
Alternate translation https://suttacentral.net/sn7.12/en/sujato
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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:26 am

pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:20 am
According to Buddha, it is the 'mando' (dolt, fool) who is reborn (jāyati )
Not at all. Not according to the Buddha. Only according to Pitakele. Just an interpretation. I suggest to find a sutta more straightforward. Importantly, the word "jāyati" does not appear to necessarily refer to physical reincarnation. Below is a sutta that is indisputably straightforward.
When the mind isn’t polluted, joy springs up.

tassa abyāsittacittassa pāmojjaṃ jāyati.

Being joyful, rapture springs up.

Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.97/en/sujato
The above sutta seems to clearly not say the rapture & joy of meditation are reincarnated physically.
pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:20 am
Alternate translation https://suttacentral.net/sn7.12/en/sujato
Not really relevant. Just another translation. Best to find unambiguous suttas, as follows:
“Mendicants, these four things are born of love and hate.

“Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, pemāni jāyanti.

What four?

Katamāni cattāri?

Love is born of love,
hate is born of love,
love is born of hate, and
hate is born of hate.

Pemā pemaṃ jāyati, pemā doso jāyati, dosā pemaṃ jāyati, dosā doso jāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.200/en/sujato
The above would say "delusion" is "born" repeatedly in the mind of the fool. So lets review the sutta below:
Again and again, one wearies and trembles;
Again and again, the dolt enters the womb;
Punappunaṃ kilamati phandati ca,
Punappunaṃ gabbhamupeti mando.

Again and again, one is born and dies;
Again and again, they take one to the cemetery.
Punappunaṃ jāyati mīyati ca,
Punappunaṃ sivathikaṃ haranti.

But when one has obtained the path
That leads to no more renewed existence,
Having become broad in wisdom,
One is not born again and again!
Maggañca laddhā apunabbhavāya,
Na punappunaṃ jāyati bhūripañño.

Connected Discourses VII, 12 - Ven. Bodhi
Without a clear examination of the Pali, my impression is it is "foolishness" that is "reborn", again and again (rather than an Atman Fool reincarnated).
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pitakele
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by pitakele » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:26 am
Buddha:
Again and again, they take one to the cemetery.
Punappunaṃ sivathikaṃ haranti.
Please provide an alternate interpretation
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James Tan
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:15 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:07 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am
The manifestation of the aggregates does seems to include form which is physical .
Only one aggregate from five is physical. Also, the word "manifestation" (pātubhāvo) is not used in physical ways in the suttas. For example:
When [the nature of] things become manifest (pātubhāvo)
To the ardent meditating brahman,
He abides scattering Mara's host
Like the sun illumining the sky.

Ud 1.3 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
When the mind is immersed in samādhi, principles become clear.

Samāhite citte dhammā pātubhavanti.

Because principles have become clear, they’re reckoned to live diligently.

Dhammānaṃ pātubhāvā appamādavihārītveva saṅkhyaṃ gacchati.

SN 55.40 https://suttacentral.net/sn55.40/en/sujato
Licchavis, the appearance of five treasures is rare in the world.

Pañcannaṃ, licchavī, ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What five?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ?

The appearance of a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who explains the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One. ;)

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desetā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who understands the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who practices in line with the teaching.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who is grateful and thankful.

kataññū katavedī puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

AN 5.143 https://suttacentral.net/an5.144/en/sujato
:candle:
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am
Acquisition of the sense fields does include physical properties .
The sense fields are made of twelve dhammas: six internal and six external; two of which are mental.
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am
Various sentient beings in the various orders does referred to physicality .
No.
No, really ? What is it that called form ? Mental ?
What is it that called rupa ? Mental also ?


:jumping:
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:00 am

pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:50 am
Please provide an alternate interpretation
As I said, 1st it needs to be translated properly. In other words, is the Pali referring to the soul (atman) being buried in the cemetery life after life? Or does it referring repeatedly visiting dead relatives in the cemetery? :shrug: as follows:
"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while running & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while running & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Personally, I can't translate Pali. Personally, I can only read Pali in context. For example, in SN 12.10, before his awakening, the Buddha used the word "jayati" (which appeared to be a common belief held by Brahmins, such as in MN 49 and AN 4.45) but after his awakening referred to "jati". Therefore, when the Buddha speaks in the sutta you posted, he might be speaking to a Brahmin about the Brahmins own beliefs. Yet you appear to take refuge in the Brahmin's doctrine. ;)

Regardless, I already provided undisputable suttas that say "jayati" does not necessarily means "physical birth" in the Buddha's doctrine. We can't keep translating every different word as "birth" or "rebirth" (like Sujato and Bodhi do). "Jati" and "jayati" may not be the same word (as shown in SN 12.10). So instead of posting dogma, why don't you explain the Pali to us? Regardless, is the Buddha speaking ultimate truth to a resentful Brahmin? Did you actually consider who the Buddha was talking to; the context; and the result? Did anyone get enlightened? Thanks
Punappunaṃ jāyati mīyati ca,
Punappunaṃ sivathikaṃ haranti.

:shrug:
:candle:
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am
No, really ? What is it that called form ? Mental ? What is it that called rupa ? Mental also ?
Most here don't know Pali but it would be a real mess if most here did not read English properly. :roll: Please re-read my reply to you, James. Thanks
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:35 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:00 am
Please re-read my reply to you, James. Thanks
OK, six sense fields (internal external) , does this anywhere says it all is mental ?
Please explain .
:reading:

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pitakele
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by pitakele » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:00 am
Buddha:
Again and again, they take one to the cemetery.
Punappunaṃ sivathikaṃ haranti.
Literal translation of above is accurate. If not, I would suggest an alternative. Please check with Ven. Dhammānando if you dispute this.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:18 am

pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:40 am
Literal translation of above is accurate. If not, I would suggest an alternative. Please check with Ven. Dhammānando if you dispute this.
Its irrelevant because:

1. It could mean visiting a cemetery due to attachment to deceased loved ones; as I posted from SN 15.3.

2. Jayati appears to not mean jati in dependent origination, as was showed by SN 12.10.

3. Jayati appears to be a Brahmin doctrine, as shown by unenlightened Gotama in SN 12.10 and in MN 49 and AN 4.45.

4. Like MN 135, the sutta you quoted was spoken to a Baby Brahma Boy, who did not attain any enlightenment but become a lay follower (after not being a lay follower when the interaction occurred). If you want to follow non-supramundane dharma spoken to Baby Brahma Boys you can but Baby Brahma Boy dharma is not lokuttara (supramundane/transcendent) and not related to Dependent Origination; per MN 117, MN 38 and other suttas.

5. Sorry but I cannot be anymore clearer above. SN 7.12 you quoted appears unrelated to Dependent Origination. Jayati appears to not be jati when examined contextually. Please check with Ven. Dhammānando if you dispute this.
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited.In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:23 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:00 am
As I said, 1st it needs to be translated properly. In other words, is the Pali referring to the soul (atman) being buried in the cemetery life after life?
:strawman:
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:00 am
Or does it referring repeatedly visiting dead relatives in the cemetery? :shrug: as follows:
Clearly not when the previous line is included:
"Again and again, one is born and dies;
Again and again, they take one to the cemetery."


Why do have such a strong aversion to the straightforward meaning here and elsewhere? Why do you expend so much energy trying to airbrush rebirth out of the suttas?
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:00 am
Regardless, I already provided undisputable suttas that say "jayati" does not necessarily means "physical birth" in the Buddha's doctrine.
So what? This doesn't change the indisputable fact that in dependent origination the descriptions of old age and death are clearly biological, and that in DO jati is meant literally, and not metaphorically. Your argument about that a being is a convention is a :redherring:, since in DO the word is clearly being used in it's conventional sense, describing a living being.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:24 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:23 am
since in DO the word is clearly being used in it's conventional sense, describing a living being.
DO is not conventional. It is the supramundane dhamma.
Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising."

MN 28
We have discussed this matter before. Thanks. It is Mara that believes in the conventional sense as his Dharma. :P
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
Moderator note: patronising and ad hominem material removed.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:26 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:18 am
2. Jayati appears to not mean jati in dependent origination, as was showed by SN 12.10.
:redherring:

The meaning of birth ( jati ), old age and death are clearly shown in SN12.2, and these are clearly physical/biological rather than metaphorical.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:29 am

The Buddha said:
"And how do students engage with the teacher in friendliness and not in opposition? There is the case where a teacher teaches the Dhamma to his students sympathetically, seeking their well-being, out of sympathy: 'This is for your well-being; this is for your happiness.' His disciples listen, lend ear, & apply their minds to gnosis. Not turning aside, they don't stray from the Teacher's message. This is how students engage with the teacher as friends and not as opponents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:26 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:18 am
2. Jayati appears to not mean jati in dependent origination, as was showed by SN 12.10.
:redherring:

The meaning of birth ( jati ), old age and death are clearly shown in SN12.2, and these are clearly physical/biological rather than metaphorical.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The above appears to literally mean identifying with the physical because "a being" is only a "view" according to SN 5.10 and SN 23.2. Please try to not repeat past discussions. Thanks We have discussed this many times before together. :smile:
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:38 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:50 am
Take care.
So are you convinced yet my teaching from the Pali has merit and is well substantiated; similar to Upali who manifested conviction in MN 56?
Licchavis, the appearance of five treasures is rare in the world :bow: .

Pañcannaṃ, licchavī, ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What five?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ?

The appearance of a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who explains the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One. ;)

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desetā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who understands the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who practices in line with the teaching.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who is grateful and thankful.

kataññū katavedī puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

AN 5.143 https://suttacentral.net/an5.144/en/sujato
Obviously above the word "pātubhāvo" does not refer to the "manifestation" or "appearance" of aggregates from a vagina. It appears to mean how aggregates take shape. One night, under the Bodhi Tree, the aggregates of Gotama manifested (differently to how they previously were) as a fully awakened Buddha. :) Why did those aggregates "manifest" in this way? Because the mind "manifested" in enlightenment, as follows:
When [the nature of] things become manifest (pātubhāvo)
To the ardent meditating brahman,
He abides scattering Mara's host :P
Like the sun illumining the sky.

Ud 1.3
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