What is it that take birth ?

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Dinsdale
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:43 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:10 pm
"physical process" is a mental construction.
chownah
I don't understand why you keep making this argument, it's more like a philosophical position than anything based on the suttas.

The suttas do distinguish between mental and physical ( bodily? ), eg in the classification of vedana. And then there is the distinction in the Arrow Sutta, that between bodily pain and mental anguish. And of course rupa ( form ) is "physical", it's described in terms of the four great elements.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Bundokji
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:12 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:40 am
Bundokji wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:53 pm
Birth is finding being in becoming.
Sutta support please? You seem to be saying that "birth" is a purely mental event, but that is not what SN12.2 describes.
I don't say that "birth" is purely mental event. What i am saying is that "birth" whether physical or mental or whatever we decide to call it is known/appears to us as an experience. For example, what we describe conventionally as biological birth, which is when the child leaves the mother's body and recognized as separate autonomous entity, depends on us experiencing him/her as such. This is why both birth and death cannot be experience directly, but through the other. Through the existence of experience, we know that there is an experiencer which tries to objectify itself in the world of experience.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by chownah » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:30 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:43 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:10 pm
"physical process" is a mental construction.
chownah
I don't understand why you keep making this argument, it's more like a philosophical position than anything based on the suttas.

The suttas do distinguish between mental and physical ( bodily? ), eg in the classification of vedana. And then there is the distinction in the Arrow Sutta, that between bodily pain and mental anguish. And of course rupa ( form ) is "physical", it's described in terms of the four great elements.
All of these things are thoughts and associations which are based in the compounded fabrications which historically go back (at least) to our childhood.
Certainly the suttas distinguish between the various fabrications which arise in our experience since it is just these fabrications which arise through ignorance that have enthralled us and which are keeping us from seeing the way things really are. I don't think it is merely a philosophical position to point out the obvious that experience is best described as a mental event.....given the absence of any mental activity then what experience is there to report?
chownah

James Tan
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:41 am

In paticasamuppada , there is the link which is birth, old age and death would cause us suffering ! Bear in mind in the paticasamuppada process after the six sense base, the contact would give rise to feeling, sanna and sankhara , leading to is craving and clinging !
Suffering can happen immediately after clinging link !
No need to wait until birth take place .

Why would Buddha described suffering Occurs After Birth and After Death ?!

Because there is rebirth take place or next birth in another realm . Round and round and round .
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:30 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am
In the paticasamuppada , the Jati link ie birth , referring to what exactly ? Is it birth of a physical body ? A thought take birth ?
SN 22.81
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.
MN 26
And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
:alien:
James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am
If it is a thought , it should be at or after sanna link .
The condition for birth is becoming, which seems to be a thought. The condition for becoming is attachment, which is definitely a thought. The condition for attachment is craving, which can include thoughts, it seems, per DN 22.
"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

"And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"And what seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world? The eye seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

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Volovsky
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Volovsky » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:52 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am
In the paticasamuppada , the Jati link ie birth , referring to what exactly ? Is it birth of a physical body ? A thought take birth ?
Well, after searching a bit more on the issue, I can say that it can mean both. If we relay purely on suttas, I would say it is the physical birth what is ment. In addition to SN12.2, the Mahānidāna Sutta DN15 also seems to indicate this:
‘I have said: “Birth conditions ageing-and-death”, and this is the way that should be understood. If, Ananda, there were no birth at all, anywhere, of anybody or anything: of devas to the deva-state, of gandhabbas..., of yakkhas..., of ghosts... , of humans..., of quadrupeds..., of birds..., of reptiles to the reptile state, if there were absolutely no birth at all of all these beings, then, with the absence of all birth, the cessation of birth, could ageing-and-death appear?’
Seems clearly to point to physical birth.

By the way, when describing consciousness, in the Mahānidāna sutta Buddha says: "Or if consciousness, having entered (okkamati) the mother’s womb, were to be deflected, would mind-and-body come to birth in this life?" So, okkamati (okkanti) clearly can refer to a physical birth/conception (greetings, DooDoot). And there are two births in paṭicca samuppāda - during describing nāma-rūpa and during jāti. This is supported by Mahānidāna sutta.

But anyway, Vibhańga (which is probably the oldest among Abhidhamma books) does recognize that jāti in paṭicca samuppāda can also refer a birth of a thought:
when bad consciousness arises... because of ignorance there is activity; because of activity there isconsciousness; because of consciousness there is mind; because of mind there is the sixth base; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact there is feeling; because of feeling there is craving; because of craving there is attachment; because of attachment there is becom­ing; because of becoming there is birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering.
Vibh 144,2: yasmiṃ samaye akusalaṃ cittaṃ uppannaṃ hoti ... tasmiṃ samaye avijjāpaccayā saṅkhāro, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmaṃ, nāmapaccayā chaṭṭāyatanaṃ, chaṭṭāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, vedanāpaccayā taṇhā, taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ, upādānapaccayā bhavo, bhavapaccayā jāti, jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ. Evam etassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti.
Notably, this mode of presentation speaks only of "name" instead of "name-and-form", and also only of the "sixth sense-sphere", as appropriate in an application to mind-moments (see Anālayo, Rebirth and the Gandhabba).

So, Abhidhamma does recognize birth in paṭicca samuppāda as being both: physical (I haven't cited this part from Vibh) and a birth of the consciousness.

auto
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by auto » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:09 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'Do you know how there is the descent of an embryo?'
"'Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.'

"'But do you know for sure whether the gandhabba is a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker?'
"'No, master.'

"'That being the case, do you know who you are?'
"'That being the case, master, we don't know who we are.'
what is being, satta

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form..
It seem the being about to reborn is made on spot. Buddha defeats views like superior caste person is heir of a Brahman..

auto
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by auto » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:55 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. To one experiencing feeling I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'
if there is descent of an embryo there is namarupa what is a requisite condition for sense media, that include senseorgans like eyes or ears or skin.

Looks like DO doesn't exclude mundane body development, so biological flesh passion and urges are a game.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:21 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:52 pm
Seems clearly to point to physical birth.
But it doesn't. I recall suggesting before to you to thoroughly research and examine how the words sattā, jāti, okkanti, abhinibbatti, pātubhāvo and paṭilābho (found in the definition of "birth" in SN 12.2) are used in the suttas. My research found these words appear to not be used in physical ways. I would suggest to take up my challenge to you. I will be very happy and grateful if you can prove my view is wrong (because personally I am only interested in the truth). :thanks:
The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates, and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings.

Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato

James Tan
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:21 pm
The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates, and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings.

Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
Now, what is the meaning of six sense base ?
The manifestation of the aggregates does seems to include form which is physical .
Acquisition of the sense fields does include physical properties .
Various sentient beings in the various orders does referred to physicality .
:reading:

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Volovsky
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Volovsky » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:21 pm
I recall suggesting before to you to thoroughly research and examine how the words sattā, jāti, okkanti, abhinibbatti, pātubhāvo and paṭilābho (found in the definition of "birth" in SN 12.2) are used in the suttas. My research found these words appear to not be used in physical ways. I would suggest to take up my challenge to you. I will be very happy and grateful if you can prove my view is wrong (because personally I am only interested in the truth).
What do you want me to provide? The passages, where these words refer to physical birth? I can easily do it - where okkanti refers to physical birth I already provided (see my previous post). I'm sure I can find passages where somebody (e.g. bodhisatta) was born and word jāti is used, etc.

But such approach doesn't make any sense. If a word has multiple meanings/usages, then we have to find, which usage is ment in a particular case. This means, we have to cite something relevant to DO: be it suttas, Abhidhamma, commentaries, texts from other early schools, but not passages, which are not dealt with DO. Otherwise we can let's say interpret "sota" in sotāpanna as "ear", and build a lot of interesting theories on that, which not necessarily have anything to do with Buddha's teaching.
Last edited by Volovsky on Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by chownah » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:34 am

Maybe these question are not worth considering but I will pose them anyway because it might be that our attitudes about birth will influence our idea about what it is that takes birth:
Let's talk about physical birth.
How do we know what physical birth is?
Do we know exactly when it happens?
How do we know when it happens?
When a new being comes about do people think of it as having a self and how does this color our ideas and expectations about this coming about?
Is the dukkha connected with birth the physical pains of the mother and baby or is it something else?
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:48 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:16 am
What do you want me to provide?
Obviously, you have not read the suttas. Fail. :strawman:
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:16 am
I can easily do it - where okkanti refers to physical birth I already provided
"okkanti" is used for "entry" into the stream. It is not physical; unless you interpret it as such.
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:16 am
I'm sure I can find passages where somebody (e.g. bodhisatta) was born and word jāti is used, etc.
Then find them and post them.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Volovsky
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Volovsky » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:48 am
Obviously, you have not read the suttas. Fail. :strawman:
Of, course, when there are no arguments, insult your opponent. Take care. :lol:
Last edited by Volovsky on Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:51 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:50 am
Of, course, when there are no arguments, insult your opponent. Take care. :lol:
Fail, again (since I didn't insult you). I have read many straightforward passages where sattā, jāti, okkanti, abhinibbatti, pātubhāvo and paṭilābho are not used physically. If you cannot quote these passages then it is obvious you have not read the suttas thoroughly. :roll:

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