What is it that take birth ?

sentinel · Post by **sentinel** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am

Hello ,

In the paticasamuppada , the Jati link ie birth , referring to what exactly ? Is it birth of a physical body ? A thought take birth ? If it is a thought , it should be at or after sanna link .

Spiny Norman · Post by **Spiny Norman** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:49 am

James Tan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am Hello ,

In the paticasamuppada , the Jati link ie birth , referring to what exactly ? Is it birth of a physical body ? A thought take birth ? If it is a thought , it should be at or after sanna link .

SN12.2 clearly describes "birth" ( jati ) as a physical process.

Bundokji · Post by **Bundokji** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:09 am

Self view

sentinel · Post by **sentinel** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 am

Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:09 amSelf view

I hope this has sutta support .

Bundokji · Post by **Bundokji** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:37 am

James Tan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 am
Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:09 amSelf view
I hope this has sutta support .

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN1_329.html

auto · Post by **auto** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:53 am

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Do you see, Sariputta, that 'this has come into being'?"

"One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one practices for disenchantment with, for dispassion toward, for the cessation of what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a learner.

becoming seem to be a short from "this has come into being"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The Birth & Growth of a Being

"Monks, the descent of the embryo occurs with the union of three things. There is the case where there is no union of the mother & father, the mother is not in her season, and a gandhabba [8] is not present, nor is there a descent of an embryo. There is the case where there is a union of the mother & father, and the mother is in her season, but a gandhabba is not present, nor is there a descent of an embryo. But when there is a union of the mother & father, the mother is in her season, and a gandhabba is present, then with this union of three things the descent of the embryo occurs.

"Then for nine or ten months the mother shelters the embryo in her womb with great anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, at the end of nine or ten months, she gives birth with great anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, when the child is born, she feeds it with her own blood — for mother's milk is called blood in the discipline of the noble ones.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"'Do you know how there is the descent of an embryo?'

"'Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.'

It looks like the being who is about to be reborn is standing present. Not sure if it enters. That being is a requisite condition for embryo descent.

also

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming.

"And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

sentinel · Post by **sentinel** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:44 pm

Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:37 am
James Tan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 am
Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:09 amSelf view
I hope this has sutta support .
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN1_329.html

Sorry , the link does not provide explanation on birth but bhava . Bhava is identity ?

Bundokji · Post by **Bundokji** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:53 pm

James Tan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:44 pm Sorry , the link does not provide explanation on birth but bhava . Bhava is identity ?

Birth is finding being in becoming.

chownah · Post by **chownah** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:10 pm

Dinsdale wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:49 am
James Tan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am Hello ,

In the paticasamuppada , the Jati link ie birth , referring to what exactly ? Is it birth of a physical body ? A thought take birth ? If it is a thought , it should be at or after sanna link .
SN12.2 clearly describes "birth" ( jati ) as a physical process.

"physical process" is a mental construction.
chownah

sentinel · Post by **sentinel** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:17 pm

Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:53 pm
James Tan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:44 pm Sorry , the link does not provide explanation on birth but bhava . Bhava is identity ?
Birth is finding being in becoming.

Can you elaborate ?

Bundokji · Post by **Bundokji** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:38 pm

James Tan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:17 pm Can you elaborate ?

I view paticcasamuppada as a description of how a puthujjana experiences the world. I don't see it as an objective description of reality. This is why sequence, or the exact meaning of a certain link becomes less relevant to me.

xofz · Post by **xofz** » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:03 pm

The mindstream takes birth in a new body. There it is granted the gift of consciousness. This "gift" is certainly a double-edged sword, as one who has been alive for any reasonable period of time knows its downsides. The mindstream continues to take birth in the womb because the womb is the safest place it knows to go when death occurs and consciousness ends.

If life appears to be overall "worth doing" -- i.e., take the bad with the good and just sort of "get over it" -- then for that mindstream, a new birth in the womb is inevitable and cyclical existence continues ad nauseum. For those that know better, the mindstream's destination is a much safer haven than the womb. It is not required to have a body to exist; it is only required for consciousness to occur. The mind-only realms have existed for far longer than material existence -- let us not forget where we came from in the name of progress.

pegembara · Post by **pegembara** » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:30 am

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

[A self that moves through time and is therefore born, ages and dies.]

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

chownah · Post by **chownah** » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:35 am

xofz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:03 pm The mind-only realms have existed for far longer than material existence

No, they have not existed longer.
chownah

Spiny Norman · Post by **Spiny Norman** » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:40 am

Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:53 pm Birth is finding being in becoming.

Sutta support please? You seem to be saying that "birth" is a purely mental event, but that is not what SN12.2 describes.

Dhamma Wheel

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