What is it that take birth ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:23 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:29 am
The meaning of birth ( jati ), old age and death are clearly shown in SN12.2, and these are clearly physical/biological rather than metaphorical.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


The above appears to literally mean identifying with the physical because "a being" is only a "view" according to SN 5.10 and SN 23.2.
That is only your interpretation, and it is incorrect. It is clear that here "beings" here is used in the conventional sense of living creatures. It is a clear description of the biological birth, aging and death of living creatures.

This is confirmed by the references to "this or that group of beings", the modern equivalent would be "this or that species".

Birth, old age and death are the result of craving and identification, and not the source of it.

Note that SN5.10 is a teaching on anatta, as is clear from the verse below. Again you are trying to bang square pegs into round holes, making spurious connections.

"Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'"
Last edited by Dinsdale on Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Dinsdale
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:28 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:38 am
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:50 am
Take care.
So are you convinced yet my teaching from the Pali has merit and is well substantiated; similar to Upali who manifested conviction in MN 56?
Licchavis, the appearance of five treasures is rare in the world :bow: .

Pañcannaṃ, licchavī, ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What five?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ?

The appearance of a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who explains the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One. ;)

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desetā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who understands the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who practices in line with the teaching.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who is grateful and thankful.

kataññū katavedī puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

AN 5.143 https://suttacentral.net/an5.144/en/sujato
Obviously above the word "pātubhāvo" does not refer to the "manifestation" or "appearance" of aggregates from a vagina. It appears to mean how aggregates take shape. One night, under the Bodhi Tree, the aggregates of Gotama manifested (differently to how they previously were) as a fully awakened Buddha. :) Why did those aggregates "manifest" in this way? Because the mind "manifested" in enlightenment, as follows:
:shrug:

This passage is nothing to do with the aggregates, or with jati. Yet another :redherring:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

James Tan
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:00 pm

Without the physical body , is it possible for mental fabrication to happen ?
:reading:

auto
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by auto » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:58 pm

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_34.html
“Any action performed with greed—born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: Wherever one’s selfhood [atta-bhāva] turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.
The structure of the quote is hard,
Any action performed with greed..... and then there is colon ':' and then it says wherever selfhood turns up...That means when we become aware then greed based action ripens
“Any action performed with non-greed—born of non-greed, caused by non-greed, originating from non-greed: When greed is gone, that action is thus abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.
To look this quote, then there is seemingly a logical flaw

Unless there is a reality what is absence. If to lift weights and we gain on muscle that is greed based action. Comparison to that is to not move and muscles will lessen, won't grow.

What? is that the reason why it is so difficult to be aware? that past actions coming into fruition. Makes sense to me. Ah that's also why illnesses and all sorts of things crop up too when to be aware. <3

auto
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by auto » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:47 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:00 pm
Without the physical body , is it possible for mental fabrication to happen ?
Awareness is a mental quality, it descends into body. Body is fabricated so you could experience fruits of your actions, prolly actions so far away how things suppose to be that fabrication is needed.

Self awareness descends to the heart, there is a being seated now its world border is connected to your head or eyes and lower part the seat where that being sits is connected to the sensual organ of your physical body through emotional layer or something more layers.

If you don't get into that being's world, seated in heart, then you will have a physical intercourse requirement where you will be incarnated. You will come through the sensual organ as a physical being into a world.
But if you get into dream being world you become aware and will enter the womb, then you will have awareness in waking state and can make a connection to the dream state world what will replace the mind you had previously.

In a physical world like this you have different perception or view, your self what enters the womb through intercourse is you in some place in body with what it has the connection. So that you might pull out a deeply stuck in sensuous layers being into physical waking state reality.
---
physcal body is a result of two times downgrade. From mental to form to sensual.

to get into heart is not that hard, finished businesses will make you appear there.

auto
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by auto » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:38 am

consider this,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He has attained mastery & perfection in noble virtue... noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He has attained mastery & perfection in noble virtue... noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release.'
"If a person, rightly saying it of anyone, were to say, 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things,' he would be rightly saying it of Sariputta if he were to say: 'He is the Blessed One's son, his offspring — born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma, created by the Dhamma, his heir in the Dhamma, not his heir in material things.' Sariputta, monks, takes the unexcelled wheel of Dhamma set rolling by the Tathagata, and keeps it rolling rightly."
dhamma can be source for nutriment regards to what being arises or takes birth. Idea of practice is to disband, ferret out the qualities what cease or change out.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
he hit the point where is no further escape and no point for further pursuing. So from hereon the being is born of dhamma.

James Tan
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:48 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:07 am
.......


What does the Jati here refers to the appearance ?!


https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/bodhi

Fear and Terror
Bhayabherava Sutta MN 4

So evaṃ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite āneñjappatte pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇāya cittaṃ abhininnāmesiṃ. So anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmi, seyyathidaṃ—ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo tissopi jātiyo catassopi jātiyo pañcapi jātiyo dasapi jātiyo vīsampi jātiyo tiṃsampi jātiyo cattālīsampi jātiyo paññāsampi jātiyo jātisatampi jātisahassampi jātisatasahassampianekepi saṃvaṭṭakappe anekepi vivaṭṭakappe anekepi saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe:



“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many aeons of world-contraction, many aeons of world-expansion, many aeons of world-contraction and expansion :
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:21 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:48 am
“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many aeons of world-contraction, many aeons of world-expansion, many aeons of world-contraction and expansion :
Doubtless this will be dismissed as another "forgery". :shrug:
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SavakaNik
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by SavakaNik » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:46 am

That which is at where avijja is.
That which is when avijja is.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:47 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:21 am
James Tan wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:48 am
“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births,
Doubtless this will be dismissed as another "forgery". :shrug:
The sutta appears genuine to me and appears explained in SN 22.79; which appears to explain billions of "births" from "adhering" ("nivasa") to billions of sense-contacts as "self". Surely, this sums up the life of most (unenlightened) worldlings. :smile:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes ("nivasa") all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

“When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“This is called, bhikkhus, a noble disciple who dismantles and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who scatters and does not amass; who extinguishes and does not kindle.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
:alien:
James Tan wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:48 am
What does the Jati here refers to the appearance ?
The quote you posted with "birth" does not answer your original question about "birth" in this topic you started about "birth". "Birth" is defined in SN 12.2 and includes "appearance/manifestion" ("putabhavo").

:focus:

James Tan
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Re: What is it that take birth ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:06 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:47 am








The quote you posted with "birth" does not answer your original question about "birth" in this topic you started about "birth". "Birth" is defined in SN 12.2 and includes "appearance/manifestion" ("putabhavo").

:focus:

Appearance/ birth of what ? Self ?
What is it that age ?
Take what to cemetery ?

"Again and again, one is born and dies;
Again and again, they take one to the cemetery."
:reading:

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