Four Noble Truths as a list of landmarks.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Viachh
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Four Noble Truths as a list of landmarks.

Post by Viachh »

Frequently you can find the explanation of the Four Noble Truths (FNT) as four logically related statements (specifically, as two pairs: consequence-cause). In my opinion, the logical connections between these statements are not the essence of the FNT, they are secondary. Buddha was primarily a yogi, not a thinker (philosopher). All buddhist dharma is impregnated and based, precisely, on the experience of Buddha and encourages its followers to experience what Buddha experienced without fail. Buddhism is practical, not logical: when logic does not help practice or can not adequately describe it, logic is discarded, not practical experience. In all (?) currents of buddhism, it is believed that reality can only be adequately explained by logic only to a certain extent . Therefore, it would be strange to expect a logical nature from the purely experimental buddhist truths.

Thereat it looks strange when buddhists themselves present the FNT as something that can be understood by the philistine mind, simply by considering logical connections. And the practice of FNT is considered as а reflection on these logical connections. In my opinion, FNT is a description of four consecutive experiences, not a logical scheme. These experiences arise as a result of practice (for example, anapanasati) and, precisely, in this order ( sometimes one can find explanations for FNT starting with the second NT, not with the first, since the second NT from the logical point of view is the cause of the first NT). Those who goes by buddhist way (i.e. doing buddhist practice) uses this description as a list of successive landmarks. A landmark is something that confirms that you have not lost your way. Specifically: if you realize the presence of suffering as a living experience, then you practice correctly and continue in the same vein ; if the experience does not arise, then you do not practice correctly and, consequently, look for errors and correct them. It's the same with the other three NT.
Thus, FNT is the correct map of reality that describes what and in what order you will experience in your practice of buddhist yoga (for example, anapanasati). Similarly, after visiting somewhere, we can indicate the landmarks that will be seen by the person following your instructions. For example, if you go all along to the north, you will see this (a forest, first NT) and then that (a river, second NT), etc. It is not necessarily there should be a logical link between the landmarks, but, if it is, it does not play a leading role in the orientation. But there must be a navigation relationship.
Suppose that a river follows the forest and, say, that the river had some influence on the occurrence of the forest, namely, at this particular place. Nor this logical connection between the forest and the river is important for us ( as for travelers, and not specialists for the emergence of landscapes), but the forest itself as a landmark and the river itself as a landmark, and also, namely, their sequence(navigation relationship).
Thus, the FNT is more like a list of successive landmarks(so that you do not get lost) than a set of two pairs of logical statements, how they are often presented (and no matter how much you think logically over the FNT, you will never perceive them as a living experience, for their nature is not logical, but navigational).
P.S. Also other buddhist lists are the same lists of landmarks: the Four Seals, the Twelve Nidanas, the Noble Eightfold Path, 37 Factors of Enlightenment, etc.
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DooDoot
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Re: Four Noble Truths as a list of landmarks.

Post by DooDoot »

Viachh wrote: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:11 pm For example, if you go all along to the north, you will see this (a forest, first NT) and then that (a river, second NT), etc. It is not necessarily there should be a logical link between the landmarks
The 2nd noble truth appears to be about the "arising" or "origination" of suffering (rather than a mere "cause") therefore appears to include the 1st noble truth within it. The 2nd noble truth appears to refer to the "arising" of craving, delight (a synonym for attachment) and becoming. The 1st noble truth emphasises the suffering of attachment to the five aggregates.
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chownah
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Re: Four Noble Truths as a list of landmarks.

Post by chownah »

I don't see it just the way you describe it but if what you are describing is how you understand it then I suggest following it with an open mind and finding out for yourself if it provides a path forward for you.
chownah
User1249x
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Re: Four Noble Truths as a list of landmarks.

Post by User1249x »

The 4NTs are realized with the Attainment of Eye of Wisdom and seeing the Fourfold Round with regards to Aggregates, their cessation is realized by directing the mind to the Deathless, to the Destruction of Delusion and thus going to the End of the World. Thus with the attainment of cessation the world, four things are clearly discerned and have been directly realized, nature of suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and the way to cessation of suffering. The attainment of the Path is analogue to attainment of cessation of perception and feeling.

Let there be no doubt it is a meditative attainment, the going to the end of the world, it transcends mere Intellectual understanding of fair, modicum or even superior degree.
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DooDoot
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Re: Four Noble Truths as a list of landmarks.

Post by DooDoot »

User1249x wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:01 amThe attainment of the Path is analogue to attainment of cessation of perception and feeling.
Lets review the 4NTs so we don't mislead newbies. :roll:
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Where the "world" is used as a synonym for "dukkha", lets review its "cessation" so we don't mislead newbies. :geek:
And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In both cases, the cessation of suffering and the cessation of the world appears certainly without doubt to be the cessation of craving, as the Buddha seemed to declare in his very 1st spoken words, below: :ugeek:
153. Through many a birth in samsara have I wandered in vain, seeking the builder of this house. Repeated birth is indeed suffering!

154. O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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