Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

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Lankamed
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Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by Lankamed » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 am

Hello everybody,

Did Buddha ever spoke of "Parama sacca" (ultimate truth). I know he spoke of four "noble" truth. Sammuti sacca, paramarta Satya. But did he ever proclaimed satya in a sense that it's the final/ultimate truth?

Ok, now this is my own answer I am able to articulate using my limited knowledge on tripitaka. Buddha wasn't concerned about "what is ultimate". He was only concerned about ending suffering. According to mulapariyaya sutta one who tries to find a "ultimate truth" will only concieve in things and things coming out of those things.

But in the sense of ending all suffering nibbana is the ultimate. Therefore word "parama" means purest and highest yet it doesnt try to denote an end in the sense putujjana thinks. It's highest becouse it stops suffering. It ends suffering and in that sense it's ultimate.

Metta
:candle:

paul
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by paul » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:55 am

Lankamed wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 am
Did Buddha ever spoke of "Parama sacca" (ultimate truth). I know he spoke of four "noble" truth. Sammuti sacca, paramarta Satya. But did he ever proclaimed satya in a sense that it's the final/ultimate truth?
Conventional (vohara, samuti) truth and ultimate truth (paramattha sacca) are important considerations in insight meditation, in that the component parts of any object including the body, can be found not to contain the self indicated by the object’s name and are therefore paramattha sacca, whereas the object as a whole has a conventional name and existence. This simultaneous reality of the two truths is described in Purification of View (Vism. XVIII), the first stage of insight, and in the suttas, such as SN 5:10, although the terminology ‘conventional’ and ‘ultimate’ is not used. The terms are however, found appropriately in the Abhidhamma:

“As one extracts oil from sesame seed, so one can extract the ultimate realities from the conventional realities. For example “being” and “man” and “woman” are concepts suggesting that the things they signify possess irreducible ultimate unity. However when we wisely investigate these things with the analytical tools of the Abhidhamma, we find they do not possess the ultimacy implied by the concepts, but only a conventional reality as an assemblage of impermanent factors, of mental and physical processes. Thus by examining the conventional realities with wisdom, we eventually arrive at the objective actualities that lie behind our conventional constructs. It is these objective actualities- the dhammas, which maintain their intrinsic natures independently of the mind’s constructive functions- that form the ultimate realities of the Abhidhamma.”—-“A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”, Bikkhu Bodhi.

The practitioner cannot progress in insight until they come to terms with the simultaneous existence of the two realities, and on that achievement conventional reality, under correct investigation, becomes the raw material for insight.

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Lankamed
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by Lankamed » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:24 am

paul wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:55 am
Lankamed wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 am
Did Buddha ever spoke of "Parama sacca" (ultimate truth). I know he spoke of four "noble" truth. Sammuti sacca, paramarta Satya. But did he ever proclaimed satya in a sense that it's the final/ultimate truth?
“As one extracts oil from sesame seed, so one can extract the ultimate realities from the conventional realities. For example “being” and “man” and “woman” are concepts suggesting that the things they signify possess irreducible ultimate unity. However when we wisely investigate these things with the analytical tools of the Abhidhamma, we find they do not possess the ultimacy implied by the concepts, but only a conventional reality as an assemblage of impermanent factors, of mental and physical processes. Thus by examining the conventional realities with wisdom, we eventually arrive at the objective actualities that lie behind our conventional constructs. It is these objective actualities- the dhammas, which maintain their intrinsic natures independently of the mind’s constructive functions- that form the ultimate realities of the Abhidhamma.”—-“A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”, Bikkhu Bodhi.
Could you state what those objective actualities are?
The way I understand "anatta and sunnata" can be taken as objective actualities.

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Pondera
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by Pondera » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:32 am

In this sutta the Arahant knows the Overlord as the Overlord. In this sutta the Buddha confirms the existence of an Overlord. In this sutta the Buddha initializes the four jhanas as the four great elements. There is no other alternative. Ultimate truth comes from viewing things as not-self and without delight.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Lankamed
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by Lankamed » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:11 am

Pondera wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:32 am
Ultimate truth comes from viewing things as not-self and without delight.
:candle: :anjali:

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Bundokji
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:22 am

I view the "ultimate" as a concept to be a useful tool. We don't see suffering because of our habits, akin to living in a shit hole for all of our lives so we noses no longer recognize the foul smell.

If habits are constructs, then "ultimate truth" functions as "reverse engineering". It is a tool to be discarded after it achieves its purpose.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

paul
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by paul » Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:31 pm

Lankamed wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:24 am
Could you state what those objective actualities are?
The way I understand "anatta and sunnata" can be taken as objective actualities.
The practitioner’s perspective should be from a practical and immediate engagement, not from detached theoretical speculation, which is unwise attention - “Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?” (MN 2). In untangling the tangle of ultimate and conventional realities the only conception of ultimate reality necessary is the immediate one, to know when the mind is wholesome and directed towards nibbana. The consolidation of experience under those conditions is for present purposes ultimate reality.

justindesilva
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by justindesilva » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:20 am

paul wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:31 pm
Lankamed wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:24 am
Could you state what those objective actualities are?
The way I understand "anatta and sunnata" can be taken as objective actualities.
The practitioner’s perspective should be from a practical and immediate engagement, not from detached theoretical speculation, which is unwise attention - “Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?” (MN 2). In untangling the tangle of ultimate and conventional realities the only conception of ultimate reality necessary is the immediate one, to know when the mind is wholesome and directed towards nibbana. The consolidation of experience under those conditions is for present purposes ultimate reality.
Mula paryaya sutta explain that the ultimate truth is not seen as it is by laymen. But is seen with reality by arya satya seekers after reaching the arhant stage. A buddda sees the ultimate with perfection.
Please read Mulaparyaya sutta to learn about this.
( For me it is dificult to ecplain this complex sutta as even learned bikkus say that it is difficult explanation).

paul
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by paul » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:33 am

In nationalist Sri Lanka there is an established role for Buddhist laypeople, but in western Buddhism they work directly from the texts, guided by the commentating authors such as Bikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro and Analayo, and this opens up healthy new interpretations of practice, and this is a case in point.
There is no contradiction of MN 1, my meaning is that for the learner or trainee from the puthujjana stage onwards it is essential to form a conceptual idea of nibbana, which creates a duality between conventional and ultimate reality, as this is the actuality of their incomplete practice. This is then fortified by experience. MN 1 states that the trainee “directly knows nibbana” and this must be a developing process.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by salayatananirodha » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:19 am

dhammapada 5?
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

paul
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by paul » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:45 am

Even after enlightenment, the dualistic condition persists as indicated in the statement from DN 9:

“These are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Perfect One (Tathagata) uses without misapprehending them."

This also indicates that names are the foundation of conventional reality.

Just because arahantship has been achieved, doesn’t mean the defilements don’t continue to arise, it’s just that they are able to be recognized and defeated:

“ when the arahant after full awakening engages in right mindfulness, it’s with a sense of being disjoined from body, feelings, mind, and mental qualities. At the same time, he/she continues to engage in appropriate attention. Although the purpose now is different from
that of an unawakened person, there is a purpose nonetheless.

“An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging aggregates
as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful,
an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an
arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has
been done, still these things—when developed & pursued—lead both to a
pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness.” — SN
22:122

So even though arahants have completed the duties and tasks associated with
the four noble truths—and have gained access to an unconditioned awareness
outside of the dimension of the six senses—their attention, when sensitive to the
world of the six senses, is still a purposeful activity.”—-“Right Mindfulness”, Thanissaro.

SavakaNik
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by SavakaNik » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:54 pm

You may want to check out the second chapter titled 'Paramattha Sacca', of Clearing the Path: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_s ... iew_v1.pdf

paul
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by paul » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:02 pm

SavakaNik wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:54 pm
You may want to check out the second chapter titled 'Paramattha Sacca', of Clearing the Path: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_s ... iew_v1.pdf
I have no interest in Ven. Nanavira’s writings. In a brief reading of the conclusion of the chapter I see he uses the example of the chariot and its breakup to assert that that process is an unprofitable means of conceptualizing ultimate reality. But the strategy of breaking things into their component parts to conceptualize UR is fundamental to Theravada doctrine, there are three examples of it in the contemplation of the body in the Satipatthana sutta, the reflection on the thirty-two parts of the body, analysis of the four physical elements, and the cemetery meditations.

SavakaNik
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by SavakaNik » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:52 pm

paul wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:02 pm
SavakaNik wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:54 pm
You may want to check out the second chapter titled 'Paramattha Sacca', of Clearing the Path: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_s ... iew_v1.pdf
I have no interest in Ven. Nanavira’s writings. In a brief reading of the conclusion of the chapter I see he uses the example of the chariot and its breakup to assert that that process is an unprofitable means of conceptualizing ultimate reality. But the strategy of breaking things into their component parts to conceptualize UR is fundamental to Theravada doctrine, there are three examples of it in the contemplation of the body in the Satipatthana sutta, the reflection on the thirty-two parts of the body, analysis of the four physical elements, and the cemetery meditations.
Your conclusion about the conclusion of his chapter misses the mark by presupposing the validity of the premise of Parama(ttha) Sacca in the first place, which is exactly what he scrutinizes and negates with well referenced Sutta knowledge through-ought the chapter - but one will never know if that's so or not unless they look.

- with good regards.

paul
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Re: Ultimate Truth (parama sacca)

Post by paul » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:09 pm

In preaching non-duality, Nanavira is reverting to a Hindu path:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_27.html

Exposing the lure of the iconoclast :

“Ven. Nanavira’s purpose in writing the Notes was, in his own words, “to indicate the proper interpretation of the suttas,” the key to which he believed he had discovered through an experience that he identified as the arising of the eye of the dhamma (dhammacakkhu) that is, the attainment of stream-entry. His proposition sounds innocuous enough as it stands, until one discovers that the author sees this task as entailing nothing less than the radical revaluation of the entire Theravada exegetical tradition. Few of the standard interpretative principles upheld by Theravada orthodoxy are spared the slashing of his pen. The most time-honored explanatory tools for interpreting the suttas, along with the venerated books from which they stem, he dismisses as “a mass of dead matter choking the suttas”. The Abhidhamma-pitaka, the Milindapanha, the Visuddhimagga, the Pali Commentaries— all come in for criticism, and the author says that ignorance of them “ may be counted as a positive advantage as leaving less to be unlearned.”—“Investigating the Dhamma”, Bikkhu Bodhi.

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