Throwing food

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justindesilva
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Re: Throwing food

Post by justindesilva »

D1W1 wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:51 am Hello all,

We have been told by many people even since our childhood to refrain from doing this or encourage to do that, but we do not always know the reason behind that. We have mixed value instilled within us.

If someone works in F&B industry or has his own business selling food & beverages products, at the end of the day, most of the time it's inevitable we have to throw away the food. The question is, is throwing food bad kamma or not? Is there occasion where the Buddha talked about this issue in the Sutta? Please share your thoughts, thank you :anjali:
It is difficult to find a sutta for each and every problem.
But it is clear that lord budda advised us to walk the path of arya ashtangika marga. The answer to this question is there.
To develop alobha we have to make dana , one of our habits. So those who throw away foods can give away their waste as dana or plan their process that it can be used as fertilisers or be used in near by farms for animals. This will comply with , samma ajiva & samma kammanta and of course with samma ditti.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Throwing food

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D1W1 wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:36 am What do monks do when there is surplus food available?
In Thai wats some of it will be eaten by the laypeople who brought it, some by the temple boys or any laypeople who’ve come to work in the wat, some (in town and city wats) by beggars, and some by the wat’s cats, dogs and chickens. In a large wat on a festival day the surplus will often be enormous, and so the leftovers will be loaded in a truck and distributed to the local orphanages.

The only place I’ve seen food being thrown away was at Wat Pa Baan Taad. Becaue of Ajahn Maha Bua’s fame, at weekends there would coachloads of merit-makers coming from all over Thailand – sometimes a thousand or more people bringing food for just 52 monks and novices. After the meal some meat would be kept aside for the ajahn’s dogs and some bananas for his parrot and squirrels. Everything else would be dumped in a deep pit and burned.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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justindesilva
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Re: Throwing food

Post by justindesilva »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:41 am
D1W1 wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:36 am What do monks do when there is surplus food available?
In Thai wats some of it will be eaten by the laypeople who brought it, some by the temple boys or any laypeople who’ve come to work in the wat, some (in town and city wats) by beggars, and some by the wat’s cats, dogs and chickens. In a large wat on a festival day the surplus will often be enormous, and so the leftovers will be loaded in a truck and distributed to the local orphanages.

The only place I’ve seen food being thrown away was at Wat Pa Baan Taad. Becaue of Ajahn Maha Bua’s fame, at weekends there would coachloads of merit-makers coming from all over Thailand – sometimes a thousand or more people bringing food for just 52 monks and novices. After the meal some meat would be kept aside for the ajahn’s dogs and some bananas for his parrot and squirrels. Everything else would be dumped in a deep pit and burned.
In many sri lankan monasteries or hermutsges where people need to bring dana for the resident monks , the day has to be booked which means that any other person would not move in and waste food.
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Re: Throwing food

Post by D1W1 »

Thanks all for your helpful reply
Dhammanando wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:41 am
D1W1 wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:36 am What do monks do when there is surplus food available?
In Thai wats some of it will be eaten by the laypeople who brought it, some by the temple boys or any laypeople who’ve come to work in the wat, some (in town and city wats) by beggars, and some by the wat’s cats, dogs and chickens. In a large wat on a festival day the surplus will often be enormous, and so the leftovers will be loaded in a truck and distributed to the local orphanages.

The only place I’ve seen food being thrown away was at Wat Pa Baan Taad. Becaue of Ajahn Maha Bua’s fame, at weekends there would coachloads of merit-makers coming from all over Thailand – sometimes a thousand or more people bringing food for just 52 monks and novices. After the meal some meat would be kept aside for the ajahn’s dogs and some bananas for his parrot and squirrels. Everything else would be dumped in a deep pit and burned.
In many occasions, those who are in F&B industry have no choice but to throw the food away. While the intention that drives the action of throwing food can be varied, as mentioned previously, generally do you think throwing food can be considered bad kamma? It seems to me the deed is between neutral and bad action. Please share bhante.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Throwing food

Post by Dhammanando »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:37 am While the intention that drives the action of throwing food can be varied, as mentioned previously, generally do you think throwing food can be considered bad kamma?
I don't think that it would be, at least not in the case of any of the normal ways in which people get rid of excess food.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Throwing food

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Food being thrown away is merely a movement of some matter that we classify in a particular way to another location in space. The kamma arises with the intention which accompanies or effects this movement. If I throw food away deliberately intending to deprive a hated latecomer of the chance to eat, then that's dark kamma. If I find green fur on a blind person's food and discard it in order to save them a few days on the toilet or worse, then that's bright kamma. If I'm working in the food industry and comply with company instructions to discard food of a certain age, then at the very least I am doing what the job demands of me, which again is positive. Personally, if I find out-of-date food in the fridge I will tend to eat it myself if it looks OK, because then I am making a saving and looking after the household budget. I won't give it to my children or guests, though, because I think it's wrong to expose them to the risk without their informed consent. Food is just stuff that is potentially beneficial, but is slowly and inexorably becoming harmful. "What can I do with this stuff to benefit people?"
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StormBorn
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Re: Throwing food

Post by StormBorn »

One venerable dugout this quote from Vinaya. This is not directly throwing, but it shows how laypeople might see if monks were to throw/waste edible food.
Now at that time a certain guild had food for an Order; many heaps of boiled rice were allowed to fall in a refectory. People … spread it about, saying: “How can these recluses, sons of the Sakyans, on being given boiled rice, not accept it carefully? Each one of these heaps of boiled rice is the result of a hundredfold labour.

Monks heard these people … who spread it about. Then these monks told this matter to the Lord. He said: “I allow you, monks, if anything falls that is being given to you,¹to make use of it having picked it up yourselves, for it is left behind (for you), monks, by benefactors.”

- The Book of Discipline, p. 2160
justindesilva wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:14 am In many sri lankan monasteries or hermutsges where people need to bring dana for the resident monks , the day has to be booked which means that any other person would not move in and waste food.
Also, to maintain an unbroken food roaster as if not properly allocated, no one will not bring food on somedays. I have seen that happening. Also, I have witnessed (also heard from friends) some monks throw the poor food brought by the poor people and cook special food (by themselves or asked the attendant to do).

I'm glad to mention that I have met some monks who are very skilful when accepting the food. They only accept the required amount and only leave uneditable food parts in the end.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”
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Re: Throwing food

Post by D1W1 »

Thanks bhante and Sam Vara for your prompt reply.
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:54 pm Food being thrown away is merely a movement of some matter that we classify in a particular way to another location in space. The kamma arises with the intention which accompanies or effects this movement. If I throw food away deliberately intending to deprive a hated latecomer of the chance to eat, then that's dark kamma. If I find green fur on a blind person's food and discard it in order to save them a few days on the toilet or worse, then that's bright kamma.
Obtaining food can be considered the ripening of good kamma. There are people in some countries do not have access to food, let alone healthy and good food. If the food is thrown away, it's said we are wasting our wholesome kamma, which is not a good deed. Since it's not a wholesome deed, the result of that action is suffering. What's your thought on this?
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Re: Throwing food

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D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:53 pm Thanks bhante and Sam Vara for your prompt reply.
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:54 pm Food being thrown away is merely a movement of some matter that we classify in a particular way to another location in space. The kamma arises with the intention which accompanies or effects this movement. If I throw food away deliberately intending to deprive a hated latecomer of the chance to eat, then that's dark kamma. If I find green fur on a blind person's food and discard it in order to save them a few days on the toilet or worse, then that's bright kamma.
Obtaining food can be considered the ripening of good kamma. There are people in some countries do not have access to food, let alone healthy and good food. If the food is thrown away, it's said we are wasting our wholesome kamma, which is not a good deed. Since it's not a wholesome deed, the result of that action is suffering. What's your thought on this?
You can make a simple comparison with throwing away money . What would happen if your saving say 5k , and you throw away 2k or 3k , your wealth (merits) immediately shrink to nearly nothing .

The best way is quickly share your excessive foods with someone really in needs if possible .
You always gain by giving
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Sam Vara
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Re: Throwing food

Post by Sam Vara »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:53 pm
Obtaining food can be considered the ripening of good kamma. There are people in some countries do not have access to food, let alone healthy and good food. If the food is thrown away, it's said we are wasting our wholesome kamma, which is not a good deed. Since it's not a wholesome deed, the result of that action is suffering. What's your thought on this?
I think that obtaining food might be the result of good kamma ripening, but it doesn't have to be. Not everything that happens to us is vipaka.

Your example is about throwing food away when there are others who are hungry. Again, there could be various intentions in play here, and that is presumably what would determine the brightness or otherwise of the kamma. If one is merely heedless and does not think about the other person's needs, then that would be less serious than if one had the intention to deprive them of the food by discarding it. That would be malevolence.

The important point here, however, is that if we are talking about distant foreign countries then in the majority of cases there is nothing that one can do to get the food to those people that need it. One might have any amount of compassion for such starving people, but attempting to actually get the food to them would be futile. No matter how good one's intentions are, it is simply impossible. The situation is analogous to saying that we have acquired good health as a result of previous bright kamma, and therefore we are wasting it if we can't transfer some of it to people who are sick. In the majority of cases, we cannot transfer our health in this manner. I don't think a deed can actually be wholesome or unwholesome unless we are actually capable of doing it. It's not in itself unwholesome to be unable to catch a person falling from a cliff, or to be unable to enter a fire to save someone. Giving food to a starving person thousands of miles away is, in this respect, like that: it can't be done. All we can do is feel compassion, which is wholesome.

Someone else might have made a mistake in producing food in order to guarantee a profit rather than feeding the hungry (that's often why over-production and wastage happens). But that's their kamma, and not ours. It would presumably be good kamma to work out ways of preserving food and transferring it to the needy, but again the intention is what counts. If we do it out of compassion for the starving people, then that's better than doing it to make a bigger profit. But we can only do what is possible.
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Re: Throwing food

Post by D1W1 »

James Tan wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:06 pm
D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:53 pm Thanks bhante and Sam Vara for your prompt reply.
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:54 pm Food being thrown away is merely a movement of some matter that we classify in a particular way to another location in space. The kamma arises with the intention which accompanies or effects this movement. If I throw food away deliberately intending to deprive a hated latecomer of the chance to eat, then that's dark kamma. If I find green fur on a blind person's food and discard it in order to save them a few days on the toilet or worse, then that's bright kamma.
Obtaining food can be considered the ripening of good kamma. There are people in some countries do not have access to food, let alone healthy and good food. If the food is thrown away, it's said we are wasting our wholesome kamma, which is not a good deed. Since it's not a wholesome deed, the result of that action is suffering. What's your thought on this?
You can make a simple comparison with throwing away money . What would happen if your saving say 5k , and you throw away 2k or 3k , your wealth (merits) immediately shrink to nearly nothing .

The best way is quickly share your excessive foods with someone really in needs if possible .
If you have someone to share but mostly the employee or the owner of F&B industry does not do this on regular basis. Comparing with throwing the money away, are you saying throwing food is wasting your wholesome karma?
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Re: Throwing food

Post by D1W1 »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:20 pm
D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:53 pm
Obtaining food can be considered the ripening of good kamma. There are people in some countries do not have access to food, let alone healthy and good food. If the food is thrown away, it's said we are wasting our wholesome kamma, which is not a good deed. Since it's not a wholesome deed, the result of that action is suffering. What's your thought on this?
I think that obtaining food might be the result of good kamma ripening, but it doesn't have to be. Not everything that happens to us is vipaka.

Your example is about throwing food away when there are others who are hungry. Again, there could be various intentions in play here, and that is presumably what would determine the brightness or otherwise of the kamma. If one is merely heedless and does not think about the other person's needs, then that would be less serious than if one had the intention to deprive them of the food by discarding it. That would be malevolence.

The important point here, however, is that if we are talking about distant foreign countries then in the majority of cases there is nothing that one can do to get the food to those people that need it. One might have any amount of compassion for such starving people, but attempting to actually get the food to them would be futile. No matter how good one's intentions are, it is simply impossible. The situation is analogous to saying that we have acquired good health as a result of previous bright kamma, and therefore we are wasting it if we can't transfer some of it to people who are sick. In the majority of cases, we cannot transfer our health in this manner. I don't think a deed can actually be wholesome or unwholesome unless we are actually capable of doing it. It's not in itself unwholesome to be unable to catch a person falling from a cliff, or to be unable to enter a fire to save someone. Giving food to a starving person thousands of miles away is, in this respect, like that: it can't be done. All we can do is feel compassion, which is wholesome.

Someone else might have made a mistake in producing food in order to guarantee a profit rather than feeding the hungry (that's often why over-production and wastage happens). But that's their kamma, and not ours. It would presumably be good kamma to work out ways of preserving food and transferring it to the needy, but again the intention is what counts. If we do it out of compassion for the starving people, then that's better than doing it to make a bigger profit. But we can only do what is possible.
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was obtaining food is the result of good karma. The opposite, which is starve to death is the result of bad karma. So if someone keeps throwing the food away, which is a form of bad karma, one day the ripening of that action is suffering. What do you think of the idea "wasting our good karma" by throwing away food?
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Re: Throwing food

Post by Sam Vara »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:43 pm
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was obtaining food is the result of good karma. The opposite, which is starve to death is the result of bad karma.
I don't think this is universally true. Not everything that comes to us is the result of our kamma.
So if someone keeps throwing the food away, which is a form of bad karma, one day the ripening of that action is suffering.
I don't think it is necessarily "bad kamma". If one throws away food with an intention based on greed, hatred, or delusion, then one day this will ripen in suffering. But if one has good intentions in throwing away food - if, say, one is concerned for the health of those around you and wants to put this rotting organic stuff where it won't harm them - then that is not bad kamma and will not ripen in suffering.
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Re: Throwing food

Post by sentinel »

D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:37 pm
James Tan wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:06 pm
D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:53 pm Thanks bhante and Sam Vara for your prompt reply.



Obtaining food can be considered the ripening of good kamma. There are people in some countries do not have access to food, let alone healthy and good food. If the food is thrown away, it's said we are wasting our wholesome kamma, which is not a good deed. Since it's not a wholesome deed, the result of that action is suffering. What's your thought on this?
You can make a simple comparison with throwing away money . What would happen if your saving say 5k , and you throw away 2k or 3k , your wealth (merits) immediately shrink to nearly nothing .

The best way is quickly share your excessive foods with someone really in needs if possible .
If you have someone to share but mostly the employee or the owner of F&B industry does not do this on regular basis. Comparing with throwing the money away, are you saying throwing food is wasting your wholesome karma?
Well , if you throw away good foods acting out of ignorant and unwise , you are depleting your merits which is wholesome kamma .
And unless one is an ariya and wise , we will always act out of defilements ie ignorant greeds and hatreds which is Unwholesome .
You always gain by giving
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Re: Throwing food

Post by D1W1 »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:56 pm
D1W1 wrote: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:43 pm
Sorry I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was obtaining food is the result of good karma. The opposite, which is starve to death is the result of bad karma.
I don't think this is universally true. Not everything that comes to us is the result of our kamma.
So if someone keeps throwing the food away, which is a form of bad karma, one day the ripening of that action is suffering.
I don't think it is necessarily "bad kamma". If one throws away food with an intention based on greed, hatred, or delusion, then one day this will ripen in suffering. But if one has good intentions in throwing away food - if, say, one is concerned for the health of those around you and wants to put this rotting organic stuff where it won't harm them - then that is not bad kamma and will not ripen in suffering.
But I'm doubt the act of throwing food that is still fresh and edible is free from greed, hatred and delusion, no matter how good is the intention. The extreme example is like killing someone who suffers from chronic illness/disease with the intention to free him from suffering, that person is not free from the karma of killing.
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