Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

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James Tan
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:14 am

https://suttacentral.net/sn15.3/en/thanissaro

“Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father… the death of a brother… the death of a sister… the death of a son… the death of a daughter… loss with regard to relatives… loss with regard to wealth… loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time—crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing—are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

“Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries—enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.”

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


It seems that death is not something psychological only , not an idea of death that arises and ceases . It appears that since there is a birth of a physical body then there is bound to aging and eventually the break up which is death occurrence .

Therefore , one can be certain the paticasamuppada process is pointing to suffering because of a birth take place and which leading to the break up of the Body which is called death .

Whether a person can come up with constructing the mind and produce with an experience or not , the factual observation is that the body shall disintegrates at the end of the day every where since existence of human beings .
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:37 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:28 am
So a "being" is what we call a living creature,
A "being" is what Dinsdale calls a living creature. SN 5.10 appears to literally say "a being" is a view and convention. I will quote it again.
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found :shock: .

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
:alien:
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:28 am
These descriptions have a strong physical/biological component, and are clearly not just describing a mental process. How can be a view or idea be subject to "decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties...."?
To Dinsdale the descriptions have a strong physical/biological component. But to DooDoot, the description merely describes strong identification of "a being" with the physical/biological component. When aging & death come near, obviously, the ordinary person most strongly identifies with the decay, illness & falling apart of the physical/biological component. There is a trillion dollar medical & hospital industry serving the physical/biological component because people identify with the physical/biological component as "self" or "a being". For example, SN 22.1:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Bhaggas at Crocodile Haunt in the Bhesakala Grove at the Deer Park. Then the householder Nakulapita went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I am a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life. I am afflicted in body & ailing with every moment. And it is only rarely that I get to see the Blessed One & the monks who nourish the heart. May the Blessed One teach me, may the Blessed One instruct me, for my long-term benefit & happiness."

"So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: 'Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted.' That is how you should train yourself."

SN 22.1
:alien:
James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:14 am
https://suttacentral.net/sn15.3/en/thanissaro

“Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father… the death of a brother… the death of a sister… the death of a son… the death of a daughter… loss with regard to relatives… loss with regard to wealth… loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time—crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing—are greater than the water in the four great oceans.
Good quote. Death of identity of "mother", "father", "brother", "son" & "wealth". My history teacher from school taught about death in war many times without suffering but when his own son died he grieved for about three years; his health became very poor. Today, I watched the movie "The Matrix" and saw many people killed. Because I was not attached to those people in "The Matrix", I did not suffer about The Matrix. But if my financial wealth fell today on the stock market, I would suffer more than in The Matrix. This is because gold & silver are subject to birth (MN 26).

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:00 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:37 am

Good quote. Death of identity of "mother", "father", "brother", "son" & "wealth". My history teacher from school taught about death in war many times without suffering but when his own son died he grieved for about three years; his health became very poor. Today, I watched the movie "The Matrix" and saw many people killed. Because I was not attached to those people in "The Matrix", I did not suffer about The Matrix. But if my financial wealth fell today on the stock market, I would suffer.
Are we discussing actual break up of the Body which is death or are we discussing the aspects of mentality with regard to the event of death ?!

:quote:
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:05 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:00 am
Are we discussing actual break up of the Body which is death or are we discussing the aspects of mentality with regard to the event of death ?!
Mentality. Suffering.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

SN 12.2
“Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father… the death of a brother… the death of a sister… the death of a son… the death of a daughter… loss with regard to relatives… loss with regard to wealth… loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time— crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing—are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

“Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries—enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.”

:cry:

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by James Tan » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:05 am

From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.



So it seems Entire mass of suffering does covers from birth to death .

:tongue:
:reading:

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:11 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:28 am
From SN12.2 ( repeated in MN9 ):

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.
I think it would be good if you explained what you personally see as being the suffering which comes about through death.
chownah

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by pegembara » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:53 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:40 am
pegembara wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:48 am
Therefore Dinsdale was never born.
Oh yes I was, and I have a birth certificate to prove it. :tongue:

But seriously, there seems to be a fudging of the issue here, an attempt to conflate physical birth and identity view, to conflate the biological and the psychological. But these are not the same.
What? You need a birth cert to prove you exist! :tongue:

There is a physical process of birth and of death but what I can argue that the old man died (but baby did not die). Likewise the baby was born (but the old man was never born) unless you believed there to be an entity/self that was somehow born from somewhere and continues on in some form after death.

Read my Dogen's quote again.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:37 am
To Dinsdale the descriptions have a strong physical/biological component. But to DooDoot, the description merely describes strong identification of "a being" with the physical/biological component. When aging & death come near, obviously, the ordinary person most strongly identifies with the decay, illness & falling apart of the physical/biological component.
The fact remains that these nidana descriptions do have a strong physical/biological component, and therefore they are describing the birth, aging and death of living creatures. They are clearly not describing the birth, aging and death of a view, and they are clearly not describing a purely mental process.

Personal identification with these physical/biological processes certainly is a problem ( eg The Arrow Sutta ), but that is covered by other nidanas.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:17 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:53 am
There is a physical process of birth and of death but what I can argue that the old man died (but baby did not die). Likewise the baby was born (but the old man was never born) unless you believed there to be an entity/self that was somehow born from somewhere and continues on in some form after death.
I think it is simpler to say that a living organism is a process rather than an entity. The process begins with birth, and ends with death.

The relevant point in this thread is that in DO, birth, aging and death are described as physical/biological events and processes.

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:19 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:42 am
So it seems Entire mass of suffering does covers from birth to death .
Birth is included in the first Noble Truth, so it is an aspect of dukkha.

Note that the suttas support the idea of repeated births.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... msara.html
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:37 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:19 am
Birth is included in the first Noble Truth, so it is an aspect of dukkha.
Hello Dinsdale,

There is biological birth, but in the context of the third noble truth, how do you think birth should be understood?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:39 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:11 pm
I think it would be good if you explained what you personally see as being the suffering which comes about through death.
I'm sure part of it is the mental anguish associated with the thought of extinction.

Though I suspect it goes deeper than this, as much biology as psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:51 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:37 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:19 am
Birth is included in the first Noble Truth, so it is an aspect of dukkha.
There is biological birth, but in the context of the third noble truth, how do you think birth should be understood?
Here is an extract from MN141, which elaborates on aspects of the First Noble Truth. As with DO, birth, aging and death are clearly described in biological/physical terms:

"What, your reverence, is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; aging is suffering; death is suffering; grief, lamentation, bodily pain, mental pain and despair are suffering; not getting what one desires, that too is suffering: In brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.
"What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.
"What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging.
"What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

So the First Noble Truth clearly refers to biological birth. Logically then, the Third Noble Truth also refers to biological birth, which means that cessation of dukkha includes the cessation of biological birth.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:55 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:51 am
Here is an extract from MN141, which elaborates on aspects of the First Noble Truth. As with DO, birth, aging and death are clearly described in biological/physical terms:

"What, your reverence, is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; aging is suffering; death is suffering; grief, lamentation, bodily pain, mental pain and despair are suffering; not getting what one desires, that too is suffering: In brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.
"What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.
"What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging.
"What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

So the First Noble Truth clearly refers to biological birth. Logically then, the Third Noble Truth also refers to biological birth, which means that cessation of dukkha includes the cessation of biological birth.
But birth and death of cells in the body continue after the end of suffering, do not they?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:00 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:55 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:51 am
Here is an extract from MN141, which elaborates on aspects of the First Noble Truth. As with DO, birth, aging and death are clearly described in biological/physical terms:

"What, your reverence, is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; aging is suffering; death is suffering; grief, lamentation, bodily pain, mental pain and despair are suffering; not getting what one desires, that too is suffering: In brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.
"What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.
"What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging.
"What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

So the First Noble Truth clearly refers to biological birth. Logically then, the Third Noble Truth also refers to biological birth, which means that cessation of dukkha includes the cessation of biological birth.
But birth and death of cells in the body continue after the end of suffering, do not they?
The descriptions above seem to refer to living creatures, and not to the cells which make them up.

The difficulty is trying to work out from the suttas when dukkha completely and finally ceases.

Suttas like this one tend to muddy the water: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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