Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

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Dinsdale
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:16 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:38 am
Also, the third and fourth links (consciouness and nama-rupa) can perhaps be thought of as a single unit since they each rely on the other for them to arise.....seems like they arise together as different aspects of some more singular concept. T
This is not the case in most DO suttas. At best this is cherry-picking, at worst it is obfuscation.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:18 am

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:17 pm
This still doesn't explain, why birth comes in the end if 12 links belong to the same life.
The inclusion of birth as a nidana in DO strongly suggests a cycle of birth and death. Logically this cycle is represented by the bhava nidana, since birth arises in dependence upon it.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:23 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:39 am
Sometimes what other people think is not true.
So we should dismiss the Venerables who have actually translated the suttas? Because their translations consistently contradict your amateur attempts at interpretation? :shrug:
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:26 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:24 pm
Similarly, you have not provided evidence the Buddha in SN 12.2 referred to physical birth.
Nonsense. The nidana "definition" of birth in SN12.2 is clearly a physical one.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:24 pm
I merely said the Pali word "jati" ("birth") does not necessary imply physical birth. ]
Perhaps, but it clearly does refer to physical birth in DO ( see SN12.2 ), and that is the key point here. Why do you continually obfuscate on this point?
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Bundokji
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Bundokji » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:44 am

Is the order of the links of any significance? If so, why?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:45 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:16 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:38 am
Also, the third and fourth links (consciouness and nama-rupa) can perhaps be thought of as a single unit since they each rely on the other for them to arise.....seems like they arise together as different aspects of some more singular concept. T
This is not the case in most DO suttas. At best this is cherry-picking, at worst it is obfuscation.
It is true that many (perhaps most) suttas which deal with DO do not mention the co-dependence of consciousness and nama-rupa.
It is true that the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is a most astoundingly ripe and ready cherry of a sutta but not because it is obfuscatory but rather because it is much clearer on many things......you should read it some time.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Here is a larger excerpt than I brought before which makes its point even clearer I think:
"Now tell me, friend Sariputta: Is name-&-form self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making — does it arise spontaneously?"

"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form."

"Now tell me, friend Sariputta: is consciousness self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making, does it arise spontaneously?"

"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness."

"Just now, friend Sariputta, I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form' But then I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?"

"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.........
It does not seem like obfuscation to me but maybe I am not one of those "intelligent people [who] can understand the meaning of what is being said."....perhaps you are one of those people and you can explain it to us.
chownah

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by pegembara » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:02 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:11 am
pegembara wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 am
For there to be birth (jati), there must first be a being (bhava) to be born.
In DO jati is clearly described as physical birth, so I don't understand this comment. Also "bhava" doesn't mean a "being".
Being a person, man, lawyer, father, child, brother, an enlightened one etc. The idea of birth is the result of clinging/upadana to the belief of one's existence. On the brighter side without such clinging there is no birth and no death/annihilation.

Thanissaro explains better-

Notice that the Buddha, instead of giving a definition of becoming (bhava) in response to this question, simply notes that becoming occurs on three levels. Nowhere in the suttas does he define the term becoming, but a survey of how he uses the term in different contexts suggests that it means a sense of identity in a particular world of experience: your sense of what you are, focused on a particular desire, in your personal sense of the world as related to that desire. In other words, it is both a psychological and a cosmological concept.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Nibbàna has been defined as the cessation of existence. [17] The Bud­dha says that when he is preaching about the cessation of exis­tence, some people, particularly the brahmins who cling to a soul theory, bring up the charge of nihilism against him. [18] Not only those brahmins and heretics believing in a soul theory, but even some Bud­dhist scholars are scared of the term bhavani­rodha, fearing that it leads to a nihilistic interpretation of Nib­bàna. That is why they try to mystify Nibbàna in various ways. What is the secret behind this at­titude? It is simply the lack of a clear understanding of the unique philosophy made known by the Buddha.

But according to the law of dependent arising made known by the Buddha, exis­tence is something that depends on grasping, upàdànapaccayà bhavo. It is due to grasping that there comes to be an existence. This is the pivotal point in this teaching.

There is birth, because there is existence. Now this might, on analy­sis, give us an insight into the law of dependent arising. The term jàti, or birth, generally calls to mind the form of a child coming out of the mother's womb. But in this context the Bud­dha uses the term in relation to bhava, or existence, which in its turn is related to upàdàna, or grasping. It is at the time we use something as a foot­stool that a footstool is `born'. When it has ceased to serve that pur­pose, the footstool is `dead'.

http://www.meditation2.net/htdocs/Books ... rmon_8.htm
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by justindesilva » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:02 am

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 am
If there is no craving (8th link), how will actions arise? How can actions occur before contact & craving?
I think commentarial explanation makes a good sense here. Ignorance and (volitional) formations belong to the previous life, so these are the causes of our present existence. The rest till "becoming" (which is actually divided into two, but anyway, these are details) is how we accumulate causes in the present life for the future one. And from becoming till the end is the result: future life.

Otherwise (if we take that all links belong to this very life) it is difficult to understand why becoming and birth occur in the very end. This would mean that previous links occur in the mother's womb. And how then should it be for beings, which arise spontaneously? Do they have different links?
There is reasonable facts to accept that sankara in the 2nd link of DO is referred to past kamma of a being.
Sankara in budhism is threefold per sutta. Other than in DO sankara appears in culavedalla sutta , which explain that craving that becomes for further
becoming - accompanied by passion & delight relishing now here & there in a question to explain self identification. (It explains sankara of a past nature)
" There are these five clinging aggregates aggregates being perception, fabrication (sankara) , vingnana. " Here with the aggregates follow citta vidi as rupa vedana sangna sankara vingnana , that referes to fabrications here and now as sankara meaning intention. I believe that the difference of sankara (past kamma) in 2nd link of DO and sankara ( intention) forming kamma here and now, can be clarified.
A third sankara in sutta ,
Verse 277 of dammapada states : sabbe sankara anicca. Sankara here means all mental fabrications , meaning "all conditioned phenomena are impermanent" also states when one becomes weary of dukka , (the kandas) with insight , this is the path to wisdom.Here Lord budda in order to
explain sankara to be made use as a subject of meditation of 500 bikkus, explained sankara as " all conditioned things or phenomena" that is subject
to change and decay and are therefore impermanent. Per stanza 277 of DP sankara is phenomena which are subject to decay as flora and fauna
dead bodies, rocks, earth, but also mind (citta) too included in sankara.
There fore we can conclude that sankara in the 2nd link in DO referes to our our own kamma fabricated during conception in the womb. Further this where we can explain the birth of a child born as blind or deaf. The sankara here ought to be physical and mental fabrications that can give rise to pancendriya for existence (bhava)

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by justindesilva » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:02 am

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 am
If there is no craving (8th link), how will actions arise? How can actions occur before contact & craving?
I think commentarial explanation makes a good sense here. Ignorance and (volitional) formations belong to the previous life, so these are the causes of our present existence. The rest till "becoming" (which is actually divided into two, but anyway, these are details) is how we accumulate causes in the present life for the future one. And from becoming till the end is the result: future life.

Otherwise (if we take that all links belong to this very life) it is difficult to understand why becoming and birth occur in the very end. This would mean that previous links occur in the mother's womb. And how then should it be for beings, which arise spontaneously? Do they have different links?
There is reasonable facts to accept that sankara in the 2nd link of DO is referred to past kamma of a being.
Sankara in budhism is threefold per sutta. Other than in DO sankara appears in culavedalla sutta , which explain that craving that becomes for further
becoming - accompanied by passion & delight relishing now here & there in a question to explain self identification. (It explains sankara of a past nature)
" There are these five clinging aggregates aggregates being perception, fabrication (sankara) , vingnana. " Here with the aggregates follow citta vidi as rupa vedana sangna sankara vingnana , that referes to fabrications here and now as sankara meaning intention. I believe that the difference of sankara (past kamma) in 2nd link of DO and sankara ( intention) forming kamma here and now, can be clarified.
A third sankara in sutta ,
Verse 277 of dammapada states : sabbe sankara anicca. Sankara here means all mental fabrications , meaning "all conditioned phenomena are impermanent" also states when one becomes weary of dukka , (the kandas) with insight , this is the path to wisdom.Here Lord budda in order to
explain sankara to be made use as a subject of meditation of 500 bikkus, explained sankara as " all conditioned things or phenomena" that is subject
to change and decay and are therefore impermanent. Per stanza 277 of DP sankara is phenomena which are subject to decay as flora and fauna
dead bodies, rocks, earth, but also mind (citta) too included in sankara.
There fore we can conclude that sankara in the 2nd link in DO referes to our our own kamma fabricated during conception in the womb. Further this where we can explain the birth of a child born as blind or deaf. The sankara here ought to be physical and mental fabrications that can give rise to pancendriya for existence (bhava)

justindesilva
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by justindesilva » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:02 am

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 am
If there is no craving (8th link), how will actions arise? How can actions occur before contact & craving?
I think commentarial explanation makes a good sense here. Ignorance and (volitional) formations belong to the previous life, so these are the causes of our present existence. The rest till "becoming" (which is actually divided into two, but anyway, these are details) is how we accumulate causes in the present life for the future one. And from becoming till the end is the result: future life.

Otherwise (if we take that all links belong to this very life) it is difficult to understand why becoming and birth occur in the very end. This would mean that previous links occur in the mother's womb. And how then should it be for beings, which arise spontaneously? Do they have different links?
There is reasonable facts to accept that sankara in the 2nd link of DO is referred to past kamma of a being.
Sankara in budhism is threefold per sutta. Other than in DO sankara appears in culavedalla sutta , which explain that craving that becomes for further
becoming - accompanied by passion & delight relishing now here & there in a question to explain self identification. (It explains sankara of a past nature)
" There are these five clinging aggregates aggregates being perception, fabrication (sankara) , vingnana. " Here with the aggregates follow citta vidi as rupa vedana sangna sankara vingnana , that referes to fabrications here and now as sankara meaning intention. I believe that the difference of sankara (past kamma) in 2nd link of DO and sankara ( intention) forming kamma here and now, can be clarified.
A third sankara in sutta ,
Verse 277 of dammapada states : sabbe sankara anicca. Sankara here means all mental fabrications , meaning "all conditioned phenomena are impermanent" also states when one becomes weary of dukka , (the kandas) with insight , this is the path to wisdom.Here Lord budda in order to
explain sankara to be made use as a subject of meditation of 500 bikkus, explained sankara as " all conditioned things or phenomena" that is subject
to change and decay and are therefore impermanent. Per stanza 277 of DP sankara is phenomena which are subject to decay as flora and fauna
dead bodies, rocks, earth, but also mind (citta) too included in sankara.
There fore we can conclude that sankara in the 2nd link in DO referes to our our own kamma fabricated during conception in the womb. Further this where we can explain the birth of a child born as blind or deaf. The sankara here ought to be physical and mental fabrications that can give rise to pancendriya for existence (bhava)

justindesilva
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by justindesilva » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:02 am

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 am
If there is no craving (8th link), how will actions arise? How can actions occur before contact & craving?
I think commentarial explanation makes a good sense here. Ignorance and (volitional) formations belong to the previous life, so these are the causes of our present existence. The rest till "becoming" (which is actually divided into two, but anyway, these are details) is how we accumulate causes in the present life for the future one. And from becoming till the end is the result: future life.

Otherwise (if we take that all links belong to this very life) it is difficult to understand why becoming and birth occur in the very end. This would mean that previous links occur in the mother's womb. And how then should it be for beings, which arise spontaneously? Do they have different links?
There is reasonable facts to accept that sankara in the 2nd link of DO is referred to past kamma of a being.
Sankara in budhism is threefold per sutta. Other than in DO sankara appears in culavedalla sutta , which explain that craving that becomes for further
becoming - accompanied by passion & delight relishing now here & there in a question to explain self identification. (It explains sankara of a past nature)
" There are these five clinging aggregates aggregates being perception, fabrication (sankara) , vingnana. " Here with the aggregates follow citta vidi as rupa vedana sangna sankara vingnana , that referes to fabrications here and now as sankara meaning intention. I believe that the difference of sankara (past kamma) in 2nd link of DO and sankara ( intention) forming kamma here and now, can be clarified.
A third sankara in sutta ,
Verse 277 of dammapada states : sabbe sankara anicca. Sankara here means all mental fabrications , meaning "all conditioned phenomena are impermanent" also states when one becomes weary of dukka , (the kandas) with insight , this is the path to wisdom.Here Lord budda in order to
explain sankara to be made use as a subject of meditation of 500 bikkus, explained sankara as " all conditioned things or phenomena" that is subject
to change and decay and are therefore impermanent. Per stanza 277 of DP sankara is phenomena which are subject to decay as flora and fauna
dead bodies, rocks, earth, but also mind (citta) too included in sankara.
There fore we can conclude that sankara in the 2nd link in DO referes to our our own kamma fabricated during conception in the womb. Further this where we can explain the birth of a child born as blind or deaf. The sankara here ought to be physical and mental fabrications that can give rise to pancendriya for existence (bhava)

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one_awakening
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by one_awakening » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:01 am

______________________________________________________________________________________________________


I like Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation. He says the second link refers to mental formations.



Because of ignorance we engage in actions. In dependence on ignorance, volitional formations arise. That is, in dependence on mental blindness, on spiritual blindness, we engage in actions. Actions grounded on our illusions and our wrong views. We activate our will. We form determinations of will. We engage in occasions of action. All of these volitional actions, volitional formations, are called Saṅkhāras.

The word “Saṅkhāra” means forming, constructing, creating, putting together, and here it refers specifically to the mental formations, formations or will that arise in the mind, covered over by ignorance. The factor of Saṅkhāra is equivalent to Kamma. The word “Kamma” means volitional actions, acts of will which might be expressed outwardly through the body when we perform bodily actions or might be expressed verbally as speech, which is verbal Kamma. Or actions that might remain in the mind when we make decisions, form plans, arouse desires, think different thoughts and so on. All theses are activities of volition, whether expressed outwardly though body or speech or remain inwardly in the mind, theses are the volitional formations, the Saṅkhāras.

When the mind of a person is encompassed by ignorance and when he performs some volitional action, then that action gives rise to formations and gets deposited in the mind as a kind of seed with a potency, a power of germinating in the future and producing results. It may germinate in the present life or it may germinate in the next life or it may germinate is some future existence after that, even after many aeons. Whenever there is a volitional action that arises in the mind and encompassed by ignorance, then that actions leaves an imprint on the mind, a formation with the capacity to mature, to fruit in the future.

“You only lose what you cling to”

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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:28 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
Birth is omitted because upadhi presupposes also physical birth.
Craving is the condition for upadhi.
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
What actually this UFO suppose to mean? I see it often in your posts?
It is used to separate a sutta quote from the quote of a poster; so things are more neat & readable. I use UFO or candle.
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
Look: we discuss jāti in dependent origination (not how jāti is used in Canon in general). You cite "noble birth". I say: "Dependent ordination doesn't apply here". You say: "I never said it does". Then you cite "birth of gold". I will say: "Dependent ordination doesn't apply here either". You will reply: "I never said it does".
They are both relevant, however "noble birth" not so much because identifying as "Noble Birth" won't generally lead to suffering. But other identities lead to suffering; such as owner of gold & silver. Gold has fallen from $1,800 to $1,200 oz. For gold owners or acquirers, this is dukkha. Ouch.
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
Then you claim "jāti=clan". Same story? If you think, jāti in dependent origination is not physical birth (which is its obvious meaning and which is supported by SN 12.2), then provide definition, what exactly jāti means in dependent origination (preferably with a citation for your claim). Don't cite some random passages from the suttas if jāti there has nothing to do with jāti in 12 links. Then you won't be misinterpreted.
Clan is relevant - "the various beings in this or that group of beings". For example, when the clan or family identified with is wiped out in an earthquake; suffering arises. From death of "my family" or "my clan" comes suffering.

Anyway, as one seeming to have a scholarly bent; you seemed to ignore the challenge below:
DD wrote:Similarly, you have not provided evidence the Buddha in SN 12.2 referred to physical birth. If we study the use of each Pali word in that definition as used in the suttas we might find these words are generally not used in a physical way. I suggest to start with the words "satta", "abhinibbatti", "pātubhāvo", "paṭilābho" and eventually "okkanti". Please do not quote any dictionaries. Please only refer contextually to each passage in the suttas where each of these Pali words is used.
Anyway, it bedtime for me so I will let you work on the challenge above regarding "satta", "abhinibbatti", "pātubhāvo", "paṭilābho" and eventually "okkanti".
(44) Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them; we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.

MN 8
:alien:
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
Appearance of the aggregate and acquisition of sense bases is what happens during the birth (be it in the mother's womb or actual birth)
What on earth are you talking about, above? Where are the sense bases acquired from? A sense base department store or from Amazon? :D The Pali translates as: "the (illusory) appearance or (outward) manifestation of the aggregates acquired from the sense spheres"; such as when the mind sees via the sense bases five aggregates with a gun & uniform and produces the view of "a being" ("satta") that is a "soldier". MN 98 might help, here.
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
Moreover, jāti in dependent origination leads to ageing and death, both of which are defined (SN 12.2) as physical ageing and death of beings.
Yes, its physical aging, like when you see grey hairs in the mirror. But it is the identification with those grey hairs as "my aging" that causes suffering. The "being" ("satta") is the identity born from attachment; the same "being" that identifies with grey hair, wrinkling skin and rotting teeth. Refer to SN 5.10 and SN 23.2, which define what a "being" is. Hint: Its a "view" or "convention" according to those suttas. ;)
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
Are you going to continue denying obvious things?
I am not denying the obvious. If I see some grey hair on the floor at a barber shop or see the corpse of a goat, do I suffering about that? No. But if I see the corpse of my mother, I suffer, because I created the view of "my mother" at "jati". In India, "jati" means "identity". The suffering over those produced (abhinibbatti) "beings" (satta) is as follows:
Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while running around & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
If you wouldn't be so preconceived against the commentaries you would also notice that appearance of sense bases appears twice in 12 links: as the 4th link and as explanation for jāti. So, there are two births.
No. The "appearance" or "manifestion" (pātubhāvo) does not occur twice. ""Pātubhāvo" is only mentioned once in the 12 links. Also, "pātubhāvo" appears not used in the suttas as you are posting. Also, "pātubhāvo" is not applicable to the "sense bases". The word "paṭilābho" applies to the sense bases. The Buddha did not speak in English. Why are you debating subjective translations? The Buddha spoke a language similar to Pali.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 21 times in total.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:44 am

one_awakening wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:23 am
Does the second link refer to actions of body, speech and mind, or just mental actions? Or are they the same thing with actions of body and speech being the outward actions of the mind?
For me, 2nd link is distracting thoughts (vaci sankhara), memories & feelings (citta sankhara) that arise contrary to volition. For example, when you have the intention (volition) to meditate but distracting thoughts keep interfering with your meditation, contrary to your intention/volition, this is the 2nd link. Also, the ignorant defilements that condition distracting thoughts also agitate the breathing (kaya sankhara), which is also the 2nd link. The 2nd link is defined as kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara & citta sankhara, which are defined in MN 44. I think the 2nd link is too soon for volition to be arise.

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