Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

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Bundokji
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:11 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:00 am
The descriptions above seem to refer to living creatures, and not to the cells which make them up.

The difficulty is trying to work out from the suttas when dukkha completely and finally ceases.

Suttas like this one tend to muddy the water: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The sutta you provided mentions the birth of a "being", and you differentiated between "being" and the biological process of birth and death of the cells. So, is there a biological "being" apart from the process of birth and death of the cells?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:43 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:39 am
chownah wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:11 pm
I think it would be good if you explained what you personally see as being the suffering which comes about through death.
I'm sure part of it is the mental anguish associated with the thought of extinction.

Though I suspect it goes deeper than this, as much biology as psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation
The wikipedia article is really weak. It mostly talks about organisms in general and what it says which is meant to apply specifically to humans is meager and pretty much unsupported with support being things like economists musing on consumption and doctors musing on war......pretty unsubstantial stuff really.

You say you "suspect" that biology is just as involved as psychology.....but this really does not clarify anything. If we really want to understand the first noble truth of suffering with respect to death is seems that we should eschew theoretics especially at the beginning and look at personal experience....that is why I suggested that you explain what you personally see as being the suffering which comes about through death.....but you have avoided answering this query so I will bring it to your attention again.

I'll use some of my thoughts from another thread (I think you have probably seen it but I'll bring some of it here just in case and for convenience in following the discussion.). I hope you don't mind.
What I am saying is that if you want to understand what the suttas mean when they say that death is suffering then probably the best place to start is with ones own experience......whatever sort of suffering you are subject to with respect to death is exactly what the idea that death is suffering is all about. You have mentioned the possibility of a painful death (of course some deaths are pretty much painless....while sleeping for instance) and you have mentioned mental agony. Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth but considering the idea that you might die next week would you be most concerned with the pain that would be involved or would the more potent suffering come from mental anguish?
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:53 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:12 am
The fact remains that these nidana descriptions do have a strong physical/biological component, and therefore they are describing the birth, aging and death of living creatures. They are clearly not describing the birth, aging and death of a view, and they are clearly not describing a purely mental process.
It seems quite clear that its about the aging & death of "a being", such as the aging & death of my wife, my mother, myself, my dog, etc. If there is no "person" or "personal object" decaying & ceasing, I doubt suffering can arise. Lets quote a translation again for reflection:
And what, bhikkhus, is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death.
As for "jati", I pointed out with sutta references it appears entirely mental. But you chose to ignore what I wrote. You did not even attempt to refute it in a scholarly manner.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:12 am
Personal identification with these physical/biological processes certainly is a problem ( eg The Arrow Sutta ), but that is covered by other nidanas.
Its not. There are no salient physical processes mentioned prior to aging & death. "Jati" appears to merely mention the mental production of the idea of "beings" based in the manifestations of various aggregates acquired via sense experience. Importantly, SN 12.66 says its not only about aging & death and SN 12.66 does not even mention the "birth" nidana. While I do not recall you ever posting anything supported by sutta references, whatever it is you are posting, it seems SN 12.66 has refuted it.
“Here, bhikkhus, when engaged in inward exploration :ugeek: , a bhikkhu explores thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: what is the source of this suffering, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When what exists does aging-and-death come to be? When what does not exist does aging-and-death not come to be?’

“As he explores he understands thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’

“Then, engaging further in inward exploration, he explores thus: ‘What is the source of this acquisition, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced? When what exists does acquisition come to be? When what is absent does acquisition not come to be?’

“As he explores he understands thus: ‘Acquisition has craving as its source, craving as its origin; it is born and produced from craving. When there is craving, acquisition comes to be; when there is no craving, acquisition does not come to be.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.66/en/bodhi

Dinsdale
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:53 am
It seems quite clear that its about the aging & death of "a being", such as the aging & death of my wife, my mother, myself, my dog, etc. If there is no "person" or "personal object" decaying & ceasing, I doubt suffering can arise. Lets quote a translation again for reflection:
So now you are claiming that birth, aging and death in DO and the First Noble Truth only applies to other beings, and not to ourselves? You are claiming that our own birth, aging and death isn't a problem? :shrug:
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:53 am
As for "jati", I pointed out with sutta references it appears entirely mental.
Nonsense. I have repeatedly demonstrated that in both DO and the First Noble Truth, birth, aging and death are clearly described in physical/biological terms, and in terms that cannot describe a purely mental experience.

You have clearly been proved wrong on this point. All you can do is obfuscate and produce :redherring:.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dinsdale
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:54 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:43 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:39 am
I'm sure part of it is the mental anguish associated with the thought of extinction.
Though I suspect it goes deeper than this, as much biology as psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation

The wikipedia article is really weak. It mostly talks about organisms in general and what it says which is meant to apply specifically to humans is meager and pretty much unsupported with support being things like economists musing on consumption and doctors musing on war......pretty unsubstantial stuff really.

You say you "suspect" that biology is just as involved as psychology.....but this really does not clarify anything. If we really want to understand the first noble truth of suffering with respect to death is seems that we should eschew theoretics especially at the beginning and look at personal experience....that is why I suggested that you explain what you personally see as being the suffering which comes about through death.....but you have avoided answering this query so I will bring it to your attention again.

I'll use some of my thoughts from another thread (I think you have probably seen it but I'll bring some of it here just in case and for convenience in following the discussion.). I hope you don't mind.
What I am saying is that if you want to understand what the suttas mean when they say that death is suffering then probably the best place to start is with ones own experience......whatever sort of suffering you are subject to with respect to death is exactly what the idea that death is suffering is all about. You have mentioned the possibility of a painful death (of course some deaths are pretty much painless....while sleeping for instance) and you have mentioned mental agony. Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth but considering the idea that you might die next week would you be most concerned with the pain that would be involved or would the more potent suffering come from mental anguish?
chownah
:shrug: Why so dismissive?

I didn't "avoid" answering your question, I answered it very directly - the mental anguish associated with the thought of extinction.

I thought the Wiki article was very much on topic, and it supports the idea that death is more than just a "psychological" problem for us. If death is more than just a psychological problem, then it supports the traditional view that death is inherently dukkha and needs to cease.

I have clearly demonstrated in this thread that in both DO and the First Truth ( Dukkha ), birth, aging and death are described in biological terms.

So logically the cessation of DO and the cessation of dukkha will include the cessation of ( biological ) birth, aging and death.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dinsdale
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:59 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:11 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:00 am
The descriptions above seem to refer to living creatures, and not to the cells which make them up.

The difficulty is trying to work out from the suttas when dukkha completely and finally ceases.

Suttas like this one tend to muddy the water: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The sutta you provided mentions the birth of a "being", and you differentiated between "being" and the biological process of birth and death of the cells. So, is there a biological "being" apart from the process of birth and death of the cells?
I previously suggested in this thread that a living being is a process rather than an entity. I'm not sure what point you're making here.
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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:16 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:49 am
So now you are claiming that birth, aging and death in DO and the First Noble Truth only applies to other beings, and not to ourselves? You are claiming that our own birth, aging and death isn't a problem? :shrug:
No. I mentioned "myself". However, regardless, you seem to be only posting your imaginings rather than what is written in the sutta. The suttas uses the plural of "beings" and "orders of beings". The birth appears plural.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:49 am
Nonsense. I have repeatedly demonstrated that in both DO and the First Noble Truth, birth, aging and death are clearly described in physical/biological terms, and in terms that cannot describe a purely mental experience.
You have demonstrated nothing. You have quoted nothing. You only posted your imaginings. I quoted from suttas every important Pali word found in the definition, such as "satta", "okkanti", "abhinibbatti", "pātubhāvo" and "paṭilābho". These words appear to be mental. The word "appearance" for example can be mental or physical. For example, if I say: "The appearance of Dinsdale is pale today", this is not appearance from a mothers vagina. It is how the appearance of the facial features of Dinsale appears to my mind.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:23 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Bundokji
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:20 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:59 am
I previously suggested in this thread that a living being is a process rather than an entity. I'm not sure what point you're making here.
If the process is biological, then the end of suffering would constitute biological death. Would it not?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:24 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:20 am
If the process is biological, then the end of suffering would constitute biological death. Would it not?
Also, if the process is biological, then it seems the arising of suffering would never occur in the present life. Otherwise, a dead corpse would experience sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Sounds weird. :roll:
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play.

SN 12.2
The following quote appears to support the view that "death" is mental.
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.
Dinsdale can't quote any suttas to support their personal ideas or refute the above suttas. Dinsdale can only keep repeating "its physical". :clap:



In MN 87, the gambler is not grieving over a dead physical body. The gambler is grieving over "his son". :weep:
the Blessed One said to him, "Householder, your faculties are not those of one who is steady in his own mind. There is an aberration in your faculties."

"Lord, how could there not be an aberration in my faculties? My dear & beloved little son, my only child, has died. Because of his death, I have no desire to work or to eat. I keep going to the cemetery and crying out, 'Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone, my only little child?'"

"That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

chownah
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:32 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:54 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:43 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:39 am
I'm sure part of it is the mental anguish associated with the thought of extinction.
Though I suspect it goes deeper than this, as much biology as psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-preservation

The wikipedia article is really weak. It mostly talks about organisms in general and what it says which is meant to apply specifically to humans is meager and pretty much unsupported with support being things like economists musing on consumption and doctors musing on war......pretty unsubstantial stuff really.

You say you "suspect" that biology is just as involved as psychology.....but this really does not clarify anything. If we really want to understand the first noble truth of suffering with respect to death is seems that we should eschew theoretics especially at the beginning and look at personal experience....that is why I suggested that you explain what you personally see as being the suffering which comes about through death.....but you have avoided answering this query so I will bring it to your attention again.

I'll use some of my thoughts from another thread (I think you have probably seen it but I'll bring some of it here just in case and for convenience in following the discussion.). I hope you don't mind.
What I am saying is that if you want to understand what the suttas mean when they say that death is suffering then probably the best place to start is with ones own experience......whatever sort of suffering you are subject to with respect to death is exactly what the idea that death is suffering is all about. You have mentioned the possibility of a painful death (of course some deaths are pretty much painless....while sleeping for instance) and you have mentioned mental agony. Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth but considering the idea that you might die next week would you be most concerned with the pain that would be involved or would the more potent suffering come from mental anguish?
chownah
:shrug: Why so dismissive?

I didn't "avoid" answering your question, I answered it very directly - the mental anguish associated with the thought of extinction.

I thought the Wiki article was very much on topic, and it supports the idea that death is more than just a "psychological" problem for us. If death is more than just a psychological problem, then it supports the traditional view that death is inherently dukkha and needs to cease.
Well, your "as much biological as phsychologocal" sort of amiguated your reply so I'm glad to know that it is mental anguish which is the suffering which you associate with death.....so if it suffering that we should understand (as is indicated in the first noble truth) then with respect to death the suffering you seem to be most concerned with is mental. If we want to understand it more fully we should examine the mental anguish associated with death and by coming to a better undertanding of that mental anguish we will come to a better understanding of suffering as presented in the first noble truth.

I want to afirm that bodily pain is also a concern but I think that it can be seen (as I tried to show in my posting here and in the other thread) that the bodily pain aspect of death is for most people not a major concern although bodily pain is always a concern....so much so that I really think that if there is bodily pain at the time of death (sometimes there isn't) then it should not be even thought of as suffering from death but rather suffering from bodily pain.....any additional aversion which arises from bodily pain at the time of death (as oppposed to what would arise at other times) is most likely a mental fabrication prompted by the extreme mental anguish which occurs for many at the time of death.....I think that this additional bodily pain is associated with mental anguish and not with the actual occurance of death. Perhaps this is too much blab on bodily pain vis a vis death but I just thought that it is a concern and an issue so I thought I'd try to cover it without being over long...I hope I have succedded.

Now back to mental anguish briefly......I believe in the suttas it talks about 'wanting to see sights not yet seen' and 'hearing sounds not yet heard' etc. I even think that asking about this is something that the buddha did with some monks who were near death.....if someone could find that (those) sutta(s) I'd appreciate if they brought it (them) here for us to consider. Anyway, death is just the loss of life or to be more sutta like it is the loss of our world...the loss of the six sense media which the dellusional self sees as being its own and which the delusional self is attached to so severely because it is through those six that the delusional self keeps convincing itself of its existence. This is the real cause of the mental anguish associated with death......the loss of delusional self....the loss of the six sense media....the loss of life....expected nihilation....
....and speaking of things not yet tasted.....it is dinnertime and my hunger is making me skip proof reading this stuff.....I hope it makes readable.....
chownah
edit: As to the wikipedia article....I think it is pretty useless in this discussion and I invite all readers here to take a look at it and pay attention to few parts which are meant to apply to humans and look at the references which from what I have seen just present more unsupported musings....it does however delineate that pain at death and mental anguish are the two major factors.....which seems pretty obvious but neither pain nor mental anguish is actually addressed in any definitive way (from what I have seen).
chownah

chownah
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:15 am

In my previous post I said:
I want to afirm that bodily pain is also a concern but I think that it can be seen (as I tried to show in my posting here and in the other thread) that the bodily pain aspect of death is for most people not a major concern although bodily pain is always a concern....so much so that I really think that if there is bodily pain at the time of death (sometimes there isn't) then it should not be even thought of as suffering from death but rather suffering from bodily pain.....any additional aversion which arises from bodily pain at the time of death (as oppposed to what would arise at other times) is most likely a mental fabrication prompted by the extreme mental anguish which occurs for many at the time of death.....I think that this additional bodily pain is associated with mental anguish and not with the actual occurance of death.
Here is a sutta which supports this:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
a portion:
Once the Blessed One was staying among the Bhaggas in the Deer Park at Bhesakala Grove, near Crocodile Haunt. At that time, Nakula's father, the householder, was diseased, in pain, severely ill. Then Nakula's mother said to him: "Don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.

"Now it may be that you are thinking, 'Nakula's mother will not be able to support the children or maintain the household after I'm gone,' but you shouldn't see things in that way. I am skilled at spinning cotton, at carding matted wool. I can support the children and maintain the household after you are gone. So don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.

"Now it may be that you are thinking, 'Nakula's mother will take another husband after I'm gone,' but you shouldn't see things in that way. You know as well as I how my fidelity[1] has been constant for the past sixteen years. So don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized death when one is worried.

"Now it may be that you are thinking, 'Nakula's mother will have no desire to go see the Blessed One, to go see the community of monks, after I'm gone,' but you shouldn't see things in that way. I will have an even greater desire to go see the Blessed One, to go see the community of monks, after you are gone. So don't be worried as you die, householder. Death is painful for one who is worried. The Blessed One has criticized being worried at the time of death.

...........
It goes on.....notice the continued use of "Death is painful for one who is worried."
chownah

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