Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Zom » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:45 pm

Also, the ignorant defilements that condition distracting thoughts also agitate the breathing (kaya sankhara), which is also the 2nd link. The 2nd link is defined as kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara & citta sankhara, which are defined in MN 44.
No, those mentioned in MN 44 do not refer to DO model.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by James Tan » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:50 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:44 am
one_awakening wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:23 am
Does the second link refer to actions of body, speech and mind, or just mental actions? Or are they the same thing with actions of body and speech being the outward actions of the mind?
For me, 2nd link is distracting thoughts (vaci sankhara), memories & feelings (citta sankhara) that arise contrary to volition. For example, when you have the intention (volition) to meditate but distracting thoughts keep interfering with your meditation, contrary to your intention/volition, this is the 2nd link. Also, the ignorant defilements that condition distracting thoughts also agitate the breathing (kaya sankhara), which is also the 2nd link. The 2nd link is defined as kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara & citta sankhara, which are defined in MN 44. I think the 2nd link is too soon for volition to be arise.
By abandoning ignorance , one abandon sankhara , therefore , abandoning memory and feeling ?
:reading:

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Zom » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:18 pm

Indeed -)

Well, this article by V.Bodhi is really good in explaining sankharas: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_43.html

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Volovsky » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:28 am
Anyway, it bedtime for me so I will let you work on the challenge above regarding "satta", "abhinibbatti", "pātubhāvo", "paṭilābho" and eventually "okkanti".
Sorry, I cannot search for arguments to support your ideas.
But if I see the corpse of my mother, I suffer, because I created the view of "my mother" at "jati". In India, "jati" means "identity"
So, before you refered to wikipedia, now you refer to "India". A very reliable source! It seems to me you can accept anything unless it is written in the Commentaries.

For me it is pretty clear (and I think the suttas perfectly support this) that jāti here means one's own physical birth. But you don't accept my arguments, and I don't find yours to be well supported (or supported at all). May be I don't understand them - that is also possible. Anyway :namaste:

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:42 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:15 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:28 am
Anyway, it bedtime for me so I will let you work on the challenge above regarding "satta", "abhinibbatti", "pātubhāvo", "paṭilābho" and eventually "okkanti".
Sorry, I cannot search for arguments to support your ideas.
So you are not interested in exploring what the Buddha taught together with me?
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:15 pm
For me it is pretty clear (and I think the suttas perfectly support this) that jāti here means one's own physical birth. But you don't accept my arguments, and I don't find yours to be well supported (or supported at all). May be I don't understand them - that is also possible.
My views are fully supported. Your ideas have no support. You have provide no arguments. All you have done is recite translations of SN 12.2 and then impute your own personal idiosyncratic interpretation upon it.

Lets start from the beginning, slowly, carefully, while mindfully breathing in & out:

1. SN 12.2 says: Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.

2. SN 5.10 says a sattā is a "view" and a "convention" (rather than a meta-physical organism), as follows:
Why now do you assume 'a being' (sattā)?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

SN 5.10
3. Abhinibbatti appears to mean 'mental production'. For example:
Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only volitional formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces

evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano rūpaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti, vedanaññeva … pe … saññaññeva … saṅkhāreyeva … viññāṇaññeva abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.100/en/bodhi
4. Okkanti is used in ways as follows:
Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived (entered) at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person.

Yo, bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṃ saddahati adhimuccati—ayaṃ vuccati saddhānusārī, okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ, sappurisabhūmiṃ okkanto, vītivatto puthujjanabhūmiṃ;

https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato
“Mendicants, a mendicant with five qualities is overcome by (entered into) timidity.

“Pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato bhikkhu sārajjaṃ okkanto hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.158/en/sujato
Thus, while possibly not correct, however while also possibly correct ;) , the above is evidence that supports the view that "jati" means the "entering into the mind of the production of views about beings or persons", such as myself, mother, father, wife, son, farmer, soldier, etc. An examination of the Pali does definitely provide support for my case. But you have provided nothing from the Pali suttas to support your case. I have certainly entered into the spirit of inquiry, as the Buddha exhorted in MN 115. :)

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:50 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:15 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:28 am
Anyway, it bedtime for me so I will let you work on the challenge above regarding "satta", "abhinibbatti", "pātubhāvo", "paṭilābho" and eventually "okkanti".
Sorry, I cannot search for arguments to support your ideas.
OK, lets now move to "pātubhāvo"and "paṭilābho" .
“Mendicants, the appearance of six things is rare in the world.

“Channaṃ, bhikkhave, pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

A Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. A person who teaches the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One :thumbsup: . Birth in a civilized region. Unimpaired sense faculties. Not being dull and stupid. Enthusiasm for skillful qualities.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.96/en/sujato
Monks, the manifestation (pātubhāvo) of one person is the manifestation of great vision, of great light, of great radiance; it is the manifestation of the six things unsurpassed; the realisation of the four analytical knowledges; the penetration of the various elements, of the diversity of elements; it is the realisation of the fruit of knowledge and liberation; the realisation of the fruits of stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning and arahatship. Who is that one person? It is the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One. This is that one person

AN 1.175
When the nature of things becomes really manifest (pātubhāvo)
To the ardent meditating brāhmaṇa,
He dwells dispelling Māra’s army,
As the sun dwells lighting up the firmament.

Ud 1.3
It seems the use of the word pātubhāvo is not about physical birth. For example, Gotama was not physically born a Buddha. What happened is when enlightenment/insight manifested in his mind (per Ud 1.3), a 'Buddha' or "Tathagata" also manifested or appeared (per AN 1.175). Therefore, this is evidence or support that the word pātubhāvo used in SN 12.2 about the appearance/manifestatiion of the aggregates does not mean appearance from the mother's vagina but means the different ways that mere aggregates can manifest.

For example, the aggregates of a woman can manifest in sexy & beautiful way and, conversely, manifest as angry and crazy way. From each different manifestation the mind produces different views of a "person" or "being", such as: "She is such a lovely girl" and "she is a dragon". The mind can despair and think: "What happened to the beautiful sweet woman I once knew? How did she change?"
'What's happened to the man I married?' | A neglected wife d… | Flickr

All of these are the ignorant mind producing (abhinibbatti) self-views about "beings" or "persons" ("satta"); similar to how Mara creates these self-views in SN 5.10.

Below, pictured, are the same basic aggregates but different manifestations of those aggregagates. For a Buddha, these aggregates are merely aggregates. But for the ordinary man, he is not sure whether to love those aggregates, hate them, fear them or to save them. The ordinary man, like Mara, produces abhinibbatti different views of these aggregates. "She is sweet", "she is sexy"", "she is crazy", "she is scary", "I feel sorry for her", "I need to convert her to Buddhism". The lust in the mind of the ordinary man manufacturers (abhinibbatti) views of "a being" (sattā) like this; the same as Mara does. :)
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by James Tan » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:42 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:15 pm
For me it is pretty clear (and I think the suttas perfectly support this) that jāti here means one's own physical birth. But you don't accept my arguments, and I don't find yours to be well supported (or supported at all). May be I don't understand them - that is also possible.
My views are fully supported. Your ideas have no support. You have provide no arguments. All you have done is recite translations of SN 12.2 and then impute your own personal idiosyncratic interpretation upon it.


Thus, while possibly not correct, however while also possibly correct ;) , the above is evidence that supports the view that "jati" means the "entering into the mind of the production of views about beings or persons", such as myself, mother, father, wife, son, farmer, soldier, etc. An examination of the Pali does definitely provide support for my case. But you have provided nothing from the Pali suttas to support your case. I have certainly entered into the spirit of inquiry, as the Buddha exhorted in MN 115. :)
Hi doodoot ,

Can you tell me Jati in this passage means what ? The dependent origination has to be in line with the four noble truth . But then death in below text referred to physical death not mental death ?
Can you provide sutta that support death is mental formation in the paticasamuppada ?



https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/pli/ms

Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ—saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.


Now this is the noble truth of suffering. Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; illness is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.
:reading:

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:11 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:08 am
Can you provide sutta that support death is mental formation in the paticasamuppada ?
I already did. Please read my posts. Thanks :thanks:

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:15 pm
Sorry, I cannot search for arguments to support your ideas.
OK, lastly, "paṭilābho" . Does not sound like acquiring sense bases from Amazon.com. ;)
“Mendicants, there are eight causes and reasons that lead to acquiring the wisdom fundamental to the spiritual life, and to its increase, growth, development, and fulfillment once it has been acquired.

“Aṭṭhime, bhikkhave, hetū aṭṭha paccayā ādibrahmacariyikāya paññāya appaṭiladdhāya paṭilābhāya, paṭiladdhāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā saṃvattanti.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.2/en/sujato
Therefore, in conclusion, while not declaring I am correct, at least I will declare my view is fully supported by the Pali suttas. Where as your view appears only supported by imagination. My personal translation would be something like:
Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.

What is birth? It is the production, entering, completion & bringing forth/birth of [the view of] an existing sentiment being and different types of existing sentient beings from the appearance/manifestation of aggregates acquired from sense experience.


:thumbsup:

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by James Tan » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:27 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:11 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:08 am
Can you provide sutta that support death is mental formation in the paticasamuppada ?
I already did. Please read my posts. Thanks :thanks:
I doubt that the meaning that all links in paticasamuppada is everything about Mental construction !

Your post above seems to referring to ariya birth per the Jati link in dependent origination !

But the links in dependent origination is About suffering of ordinary people with defilements ! It does not have to do with Birth of an ariya !

Therefore , for ordinary people with defilements it Cannot be Mental Death that Lord Buddha was talking about ! Because Mental Death does not echoes with their daily living , but the Physical Death does ! Can a person cries and feel sad over a thought that has cease ?! Certainly not .

Furthermore , in the paticasamuppada six sense base link is physical , which gives rise to the mental states .
:reading:

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:28 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:27 am
...
Please read my posts. Thanks :thanks:
Zom wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:45 pm
No, those mentioned in MN 44 do not refer to DO model.
Thanissaro says MN 44 refers to DO. For example:
2) Fabrication: the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind.
These processes are of three sorts:
a) bodily fabrication: the in-and-out breath,
b) verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation, and
c) mental fabrication: feeling (feeling tones of pleasure, pain, or neither
pleasure nor pain) and perception (the mental labels applied to the
objects of the senses for the purpose of memory and recognition).

A. As you walk to the door of your parents’ house, thinking about the
situation (2b—verbal fabrication), you pull up memories of things your uncle
has done in the past (2c—mental fabrication). This provokes anger, causing
your breathing to become labored and tight (2a—bodily fabrication). This
makes you uncomfortable (2c—mental fabrication), and you are aware of
how uncomfortable you feel (3—consciousness). Hormones are released
into your bloodstream (4 f through 4i—Form). Without being fully aware that
you are making a choice, you choose (4c—intention) to focus (4e—
attention) on the perception (4b) of how trapped you feel in this situation.
Your consciousness of this idea (5 and 6—mental contact) feels oppressive
(7—feeling). You want to find a way out (8—craving).....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... fering.pdf

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:42 am
My views are fully supported.
Only in your own mind. You are continually trying to bang square pegs into round holes, and producing a mess.
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:42 am
2. SN 5.10 says a sattā is a "view" and a "convention" (rather than a meta-physical organism), as follows:
It doesn't say that at all. SN5.10 is a teaching on anatta, it's saying that a "being" is just a collection of aggregates. But of course rupa ( the four great elements ) is one of those aggregates, so a "being" clearly has a physical dimension.

As usual you are misrepresenting what the suttas say in an attempt to justify your own idiosnycratic interpretation.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:15 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:27 am
I doubt that the meaning that all links in paticasamuppada is everything about Mental construction !
Some argue that interpretation, but I don't think it is well supported by the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2 and MN9. When you read those nidana descriptions there is actually quite a lot of form or "physicality" involved, so DO seems to describe a psycho-physical process rather than a purely mental process.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:44 am

pegembara wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:02 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:11 am
pegembara wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 am
For there to be birth (jati), there must first be a being (bhava) to be born.
In DO jati is clearly described as physical birth, so I don't understand this comment. Also "bhava" doesn't mean a "being".
Being a person, man, lawyer, father, child, brother, an enlightened one etc. The idea of birth is the result of clinging/upadana to the belief of one's existence. On the brighter side without such clinging there is no birth and no death/annihilation.
I don't understand what you mean by the "idea" of birth, since birth is just a fact of life, something we observe regularly in the human and natural world. Same for aging and death.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:03 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:15 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:27 am
I doubt that the meaning that all links in paticasamuppada is everything about Mental construction !
Some argue that interpretation, but I don't think it is well supported by the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2 and MN9. When you read those nidana descriptions there is actually quite a lot of form or "physicality" involved, so DO seems to describe a psycho-physical process rather than a purely mental process.
"Physicality" is a mental consruction.
chownah

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Zom » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:34 pm

Thanissaro says MN 44 refers to DO. For example:
Yes, I know, but he is wrong here. His attempt to fit breath or speech into 2nd link looks really weird. Since (and it is clear) speech or breath is not a cause for the existence of vinnyana. And 2nd link says: when [certain] sankharas exist, vinnyana exists too. If they cease to exist, vinnyana ceases as well. If Thanissaro is right, once we remove ignorance, this will lead to disappearance of breathing and speech, and that in turn will lead to disappearance of vinnaya - which is an absurd 8-)
Last edited by Zom on Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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