Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:00 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am
I think commentarial explanation makes a good sense here. Ignorance and (volitional) formations belong to the previous life...
Seems to be a very popular explanation however appears to remain speculative and possibly discordant with the Dhamma refuge of sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko paccattam vedittabbo vinnuhiti.
Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am
Otherwise (if we take that all links belong to this very life) it is difficult to understand why becoming and birth occur in the very end.
Not all find it difficult. I suppose it depends on how "birth" ("jati") is understood. For example "birth" appears not always physical in the suttas or in India:
“In that case, Aṅgulimāla, go to that woman and say this:

“Tena hi tvaṃ, aṅgulimāla, yena sā itthī tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā taṃ itthiṃ evaṃ vadehi:

‘Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having deliberately taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your infant be safe.’”

‘yatohaṃ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā’”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn86/en/sujato
Jāti (in Devanagari: जाति, Bengali: জাতি, Telugu:జాతి, Kannada:ಜಾತಿ, Malayalam: ജാതി, Tamil:ஜாதி, literally "birth") is a group of clans, tribes, communities and sub-communities, and religions in India. Each Jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe. Religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Veera Shaivism) or linguistic groupings may define some Jātis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (Jāti) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti
:alien:
Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am
This would mean that previous links occur in the mother's womb. And how then should it be for beings, which arise spontaneously? Do they have different links?
Yes. The materialistic/physical view appears to have the above problems.

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Volovsky
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Volovsky » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:00 pm
‘Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having deliberately taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your infant be safe.’”
Do you seriously want to say dependent origination is applicable to this noble birth of Angulimala? Then it probably should lead to 'noble ageing' as well as 'noble sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair'.
Jāti (in Devanagari: जाति, Bengali: জাতি, Telugu:జాతి, Kannada:ಜಾತಿ, Malayalam: ജാതി, Tamil:ஜாதி, literally "birth") is a group of clans, tribes, communities and sub-communities, and religions in India. Each Jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe. Religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Veera Shaivism) or linguistic groupings may define some Jātis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (Jāti) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C4%81ti
I think Buddha was quite clear about what he ment by birth:
‘And what, monks, is birth? In whatever beings, of whatever group of beings, there is birth, coming-to-be, coming forth, the appearance of the aggregates, the acquisition of the sense-bases," that, monks, is called birth.
Do you believe Buddha or wikipedia?

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Zom
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Zom » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:06 pm

Otherwise (if we take that all links belong to this very life) it is difficult to understand why becoming and birth occur in the very end.
"Becoming" - a very bad variant of translation of "bhava". Bhava is, actually, a [samsaric] existence. When there is existence, there are such phenomenons as births and deaths and sufferings. When there is no existence, all these cannot happen. Just that simple. No need for abstruse explanations here.

As for the 2nd link, it is very interesting, and I think it is connected with the illusion of free-will and selfhood .)

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Volovsky » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:17 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:06 pm
"Becoming" - a very bad variant of translation of "bhava". Bhava is, actually, a [samsaric] existence. When there is existence, there are such phenomenons as births and deaths and sufferings. When there is no existence, all these cannot happen. Just that simple. No need for abstruse explanations here.
This still doesn't explain, why birth comes in the end if 12 links belong to the same life.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Zom » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:52 pm

This still doesn't explain, why birth comes in the end if 12 links belong to the same life.
Because the whole scheme doesn't describe 1 or 2 or 3 lives. It describes samsara, which is endless (well, beginingless -) I've already said, that if one looks into suttas, one can find that "12 links" is not something strict, it is not a closed and comprehensive model. There are variants with 2 links, 3 links, 4 links, 10 links, 20 links.. -) 12 is just one of them. Important is the principle of conditionality itself, not the variant of the model.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DarrenM » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:06 pm

pegembara wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:56 am
LINK NO. 2: SANKHARA (VOLITION)
Ignorance of the Dhamma conditions the second link Sankhara (volition). Sankhara is defined as follows: “There are these three sankhara – kaya sankhara (body volition), vaci sankhara (speech volition), citta sankhara (mind volition).” The suttas do not explain further. Hence there is some confusion as to the meaning of sankhara. It is variously translated as formations, activities, volition, etc. However in the Samyutta Nikaya Suttas 22.56 and 22.57, it is clear that sankhara means intention or volition.
To enable us to understand better this set of three sankhara, we need to look into all the suttas where this set of three occur. When we examine the suttas we find that there are two sets of three sankharas. The two sets are:
(i) Kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, citta sankhara also found in Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 44 (Culavedalla Sutta), and Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 41.6 (Kamabhu Sutta). Kaya sankhara is defined as in and out breaths; vaci sankhara as initial and sustained thoughts (vitakka-vicara); citta sankhara as perception and feeling.
Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 36.11 says: “The ceasing of the sankharas is gradual. In the First Jhana (state of meditative absorption), speech ceases; in the Second Jhana, thoughts (vitakka-vicara) cease; in the Third Jhana, delight (piti) ceases; in the Fourth Jhana, breathing ceases; …. In the Cessation of Perception and Feeling, perception and feeling ceases.”
Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 44 says: “When a monk is attaining the cessation of Perception and Feeling (i.e. the Cessation of Consciousness), first the speech volition ceases, then the body volition, then the mind volition…. When a monk is emerging from the attainment of Cessation of Perception and Feeling, first the mind volition arises, then the body volition, then the speech volition.”

In other words, when a monk is attaining the Cessation of Perception and Feeling, the following occurs sequentially:
(a) Speech volition, i.e. thinking (vitakka vicara), ceases – this is the Second Jhana.
(b) Body volition, i.e. breathing, ceases – this is the Fourth Jhana
(c) Mind volition, i.e. perception and feeling, ceases – this is cessation of Perception and Feeling, which includes the cessation of all the six consciousnesses.
Thus we see that when the Buddha entered parinibbana (Digha Nikaya, Sutta 16) which is the Cessation of all the six consciousnesses, he did so after attaining the Fourth Jhana. Cessation of Perception and Feeling is the complete shutdown of a living being.
Conversely, to emerge from the attainment of Cessation of Perception and Feeling, first the mind volition is activated, then the body volition, followed by speech volition.
(ii) Kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, mano sankhara is found in Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 12.25 (repeated in Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 4.171) and Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 57.
In Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 12.25 the Buddha said “With ignorance as condition, either by oneself, Ananda, one wills bodily intentions (kaya sankhara), following which arises internally pleasure and pain; or, because of others one wills bodily intentions, following which arises internally, pleasure and pain.” (Similarly for vaci sankhara and mano sankhara)
In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 57 the Buddha said “And what, Punna, is dark action with dark result? Here someone generates an afflictive body volition (kaya sankhara), an afflictive speech volition (vaci sankhara), an afflictive mind volition (mano sankhara), …..”
The Buddha said that kamma (intentional action) is intention or volition. So in these two suttas the Buddha is talking about unskillful or dark kamma. So this second set of sankharas, i.e. kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, mano sankhara, refers to the creation of kamma, which is very different from the first set.

We find that the suttas that discuss Paticca Samuppada (Conditioned Arising) always refer to sankhara as kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, citta sankhara. The suttas that discuss kamma always refer to sankhara as kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, mano sankhara. So how do we explain sankhara in Paticca Samuppada?
A living being functions through the body, speech, and mind. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 44 we saw that when a monk attains Cessation of Perception and Feeling (which includes cessation of the six consciousnesses) which is the complete shutdown of a living being, first speech volition ceases, then body volition, and finally mind volition. When a monk emerges from the attainment of Cessation of Perception and Feeling, first the mind volition is activated, followed by body volition, and speech volition. This is the ‘coming alive’ of a monk whose six consciousnesses had totally ceased. Thus volition (sankhara) here is connected with the will-to-live which must be activated for the being to come back to life. Similarly in Paticca Samuppada sankhara (volition) should refer to the will-to-live so that the three ways in which a being functions (through mind, body, speech) ‘comes alive’, i.e. mind volition (citta sankhara), body volition (kaya sankhara), speech volition (vaci sankhara).
We note here that consciousness, the next link, is not continuous from birth to death, as many people think. The Buddha says that consciousness arises momentarily every time an external sense object (sight, sound, odour, flavor, touch, or thought) impinges on a sense organ. In one second of time many many times does consciousness arise and pass away. Every time consciousness ceases, it is this ‘will-to-live’ (sankhara) that conditions its arising.

LINK NO. 3 : VINNANA (CONSCIOUSNESS)
As mentioned above, Sankhara (Volition) is the will or volition that Conditions Vinnana (Consciousness) to arise again every time it ceases. Consciousness is explained as “There are these six classes of Consciousness: eye-Consciousness, ear-Consciousness, nose-Consciousness, tongue-Consciousness, body-Consciousness, mind-Consciousness.”
As mentioned above, each of these Consciousness arise when there is a corresponding sense object present (Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 35.93). Without an object consciousness cannot arise because consciousness means being conscious or cognizant of something. The important point to reiterate here is that consciousness is not an unending stream from birth to death, but arises and passes away so fast that in one second, hundreds or thousands of consciousness arise and pass away. Every time it ceases it is Volition (Sankhara – connected with the will-to-live) that conditions its arising.
Whenever consciousness ceases, the living being dies. Hence a Christian saint is reported to have remarked “Every moment I die!”

http://www.tbcm.org.my/conditioned-aris ... suffering/
Thanks pegembara, the link was very useful.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:24 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:15 pm
Do you seriously want to say dependent origination is applicable to this noble birth of Angulimala?
No. I didn't say this at all. Please do not misrepresent my words. Thank you. I merely said the Pali word "jati" ("birth") does not necessary imply physical birth. Another example:
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth (jātika), what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Or the following:
"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In support of the above, in SN 12.66, the link "birth" is omitted. SN 12.66 merely says the conditions for aging-&-death are craving and acquisition (upadhi):
As he explores he understands thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born (jātika) and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.66/en/bodhi


Idaṃ kho dukkhaṃ upadhinidānaṃ upadhisamudayaṃ upadhijātikaṃ upadhipabhavaṃ, upadhismiṃ sati jarāmaraṇaṃ hoti, upadhismiṃ asati jarāmaraṇaṃ na hotī’ti.
:alien:
Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:15 pm
I think Buddha was quite clear about what he ment by birth:
‘And what, monks, is birth? In whatever beings, of whatever group of beings, there is birth, coming-to-be, coming forth, the appearance of the aggregates, the acquisition of the sense-bases," that, monks, is called birth.

Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.
Do you believe Buddha or wikipedia?
In this case, I believe both the Buddha and Wikipedia. What was quoted from Wikipedia appears true. I have learned, in India, today, the word "jati" is never used to refer to physical birth. It refers to "identity" or "caste". Similarly, you have not provided evidence the Buddha in SN 12.2 referred to physical birth. If we study the use of each Pali word in that definition as used in the suttas we might find these words are generally not used in a physical way. I suggest to start with the words "satta", "abhinibbatti", "pātubhāvo", "paṭilābho" and eventually "okkanti". Please do not quote any dictionaries. Please only refer contextually to each passage in the suttas where each of these Pali words is used. Personally, I have done my study therefore I will leave the ball in your court. It is not my duty to study for you. Personally, I am confident I am not slandering the Buddha. :mrgreen:
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Volovsky » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:03 am

Zom wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:52 pm
Because the whole scheme doesn't describe 1 or 2 or 3 lives. It describes samsara, which is endless (well, beginingless -) I've already said, that if one looks into suttas, one can find that "12 links" is not something strict, it is not a closed and comprehensive model. There are variants with 2 links, 3 links, 4 links, 10 links, 20 links.. -) 12 is just one of them. Important is the principle of conditionality itself, not the variant of the model.
I think this is similar to what commentary says. It is not necessary to divide 12 links as 1st, 2nd and 3rd life. It is actually past (not necessarily previous) defilements and kamma led to present existence, present ones will lead to the future one. And the mechanism behind this process. Yes, it is the whole samsara.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:07 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:03 am
...defilements and kamma led to present existence...
Still haven't explained your view that the Buddha taught the defilements create physical birth of physical life (like Yahweh in the Biblical Book of Genesis created the physical life of man from mud & his breath).

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:38 am

one_awakening wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:34 am
Isn't the second link just:

Intentional actions are performed based on ignorance?
AS has been said, there are many different ways to interpret these things.....I will suggest some things which you might or might not incorporate into your interpretation.

The second link very well might not be referring to intentional action. Notice that in bodhi's presentation it does not talk about volition but rather volitional formations. Thanisarro refers to bodhi's volitional formations as being "fabrications". Rather than being intention itself the second link might be referring to aspects of experience from which intentions flow....sort of the nexus of things which give rise or give a base for the arising of intention. This can be seen in that for bodily intentions there must be some kind of body thingy for that kind of intention to arise and the same can be said for speech and mind.

Also, the third and fourth links (consciouness and nama-rupa) can perhaps be thought of as a single unit since they each rely on the other for them to arise.....seems like they arise together as different aspects of some more singular concept. This is fairly well established in the Sheaves of Reeds sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
An excerpt:
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
The rest of this sutta is well worth a read.
chownah

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Volovsky » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:24 pm
No. I didn't say this at all. Please do not misrepresent my words. Thank you. I merely said the Pali word "jati" ("birth") does not necessary imply physical birth.
Look: we discuss jāti in dependent origination (not how jāti is used in Canon in general). You cite "noble birth". I say: "Dependent ordination doesn't apply here". You say: "I never said it does". Then you cite "birth of gold". I will say: "Dependent ordination doesn't apply here either". You will reply: "I never said it does". Then you claim "jāti=clan". Same story? If you think, jāti in dependent origination is not physical birth (which is its obvious meaning and which is supported by SN 12.2), then provide definition, what exactly jāti means in dependent origination (preferably with a citation for your claim). Don't cite some random passages from the suttas if jāti there has nothing to do with jāti in 12 links. Then you won't be misinterpreted.
In support of the above, in SN 12.66, the link "birth" is omitted.
Some other links are omitted there too. Birth is omitted because upadhi presupposes also physical birth.
:alien:
What actually this UFO suppose to mean? I see it often in your posts? :smile:
Similarly, you have not provided evidence the Buddha in SN 12.2 referred to physical birth.
Appearance of the aggregate and acquisition of sense bases is what happens during the birth (be it in the mother's womb or actual birth) or when a spontaneously arisen being comes into being. Moreover, jāti in dependent origination leads to ageing and death, both of which are defined (SN 12.2) as physical ageing and death of beings. Are you going to continue denying obvious things? If you wouldn't be so preconceived against the commentaries you would also notice that appearance of sense bases appears twice in 12 links: as the 4th link and as explanation for jāti. So, there are two births.
Please do not quote any dictionaries.

So, you can quote wikipedia, and I cannot quote any dictionary? :smile:
Personally, I have done my study therefore I will leave the ball in your court. It is not my duty to study for you. Personally, I am confident I am not slandering the Buddha.
Had you by any chance came in your study to the understanding what is jāti in the dependent origination? If yes, can you share your knowledge on this point with the rest of the world?

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by pegembara » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 am

For there to be birth(jati), there must first be a being(bhava) to be born. When there isn't a being there is also no birth. The cycle is broken when one wakes up from the delusion of existence as Bhante Punnaji likes to remind us.
What? Do you assume a 'living being,' Mara?
Do you take a position?
This is purely a pile of fabrications.
Here no living being
can be pinned down.

Just as when, with an assemblage of parts,
there's the word,
chariot,
even so when aggregates are present,
there's the convention of
living being.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.

Beginning with the body
as taught by the One
with profound discernment:
when abandoned by three things
— life, warmth, & consciousness —
form is rejected, cast aside.
When bereft of these
it lies thrown away,
senseless,
a meal for others.
That's the way it goes:
it's a magic trick,
an idiot's babbling.
It's said to be
a murderer.[1]
No substance here
is found.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_95.html
LINK NO. 10: BHAVA (BEING)
“What is being (or existence)? There are three kinds of being: sensual desire being (kamabhava), form being (rupabhava), formless being (arupabhava).”
Bhava can be translated as being or existence. When there is Craving and Clinging, there is an object that is craved for, and clung to, i.e. sensual pleasures, etc. This naturally gives rise to a subject (I) that craves for and clings to the object, eg. “I must go to see the soccer match!”, “I’ll die if he does not marry me! “ Thus we see that a new born baby does not display much of an ego or self until it starts to enjoy its food or toys etc. But when it starts to crave and cling, then the ego or self becomes very evident. This ‘I’ gives rise to a living ‘being’, or we can say a ‘being’ comes into existence. Every time we crave and cling, every time we strengthen this perception of an ‘I’ or a ‘being’.
So this being that comes into existence perceives itself as a being in the sensual desire realm of existence or form realm or formless realm.

LINK NO. 11: JATI (BIRTH)
“What is birth? In the various classes of beings, the birth of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation (in the womb), generation, manifestation of aggregates, obtaining the bases of contact. This is brith.”
According to Digha Nikaya Sutta 28, some beings are aware and mindful when they enter the womb, when they stay in the womb, and even when they leave the womb. But not all beings are reborn into the womb, and the above definition applies to all beings. So Birth here should mean the knowledge or perception of being born.
Once a Being comes into existence (Link No. 10), it realises that it has been born into the world, as all of us do. Thus Being conditions Birth.

http://www.tbcm.org.my/conditioned-aris ... suffering/
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:16 am
Here is the nidana "definition" for the second link, from SN12.2:

“And what, bhikkhus, are the volitional formations? There are these three kinds of volitional formations: the bodily volitional formation, the verbal volitional formation, the mental volitional formation. These are called the volitional formations."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The above translation appears to be erroneous because the word "volitional" does not exist in the Pali. "Volition" first appears at 4th link nama-rupa.
You're not a Pali scholar, and your crude piece-meal attempts at translation are unconvincing. If you don't like Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation as above, then please provide an alternative translation from another credible source which you think is more accurate.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:11 am

pegembara wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:05 am
For there to be birth (jati), there must first be a being (bhava) to be born.
In DO jati is clearly described as physical birth, so I don't understand this comment. Also "bhava" doesn't mean a "being".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:13 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:51 am
If you think, jāti in dependent origination is not physical birth (which is its obvious meaning and which is supported by SN 12.2), then provide definition, what exactly jāti means in dependent origination (preferably with a citation for your claim). Don't cite some random passages from the suttas if jāti there has nothing to do with jāti in 12 links. Then you won't be misinterpreted.
:goodpost:

In DO "jati" is clearly described as physical birth. That is the key point here, the rest is obfuscation.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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