Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

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one_awakening
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Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by one_awakening » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:23 am

Does the second link refer to actions of body, speech and mind, or just mental actions? Or are they the same thing with actions of body and speech being the outward actions of the mind?
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chownah
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:05 am

what's the second link?
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:02 am

There are many different views about the 2nd link.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by salayatananirodha » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:54 pm

MN 44
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by pegembara » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:56 am

LINK NO. 2: SANKHARA (VOLITION)
Ignorance of the Dhamma conditions the second link Sankhara (volition). Sankhara is defined as follows: “There are these three sankhara – kaya sankhara (body volition), vaci sankhara (speech volition), citta sankhara (mind volition).” The suttas do not explain further. Hence there is some confusion as to the meaning of sankhara. It is variously translated as formations, activities, volition, etc. However in the Samyutta Nikaya Suttas 22.56 and 22.57, it is clear that sankhara means intention or volition.
To enable us to understand better this set of three sankhara, we need to look into all the suttas where this set of three occur. When we examine the suttas we find that there are two sets of three sankharas. The two sets are:
(i) Kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, citta sankhara also found in Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 44 (Culavedalla Sutta), and Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 41.6 (Kamabhu Sutta). Kaya sankhara is defined as in and out breaths; vaci sankhara as initial and sustained thoughts (vitakka-vicara); citta sankhara as perception and feeling.
Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 36.11 says: “The ceasing of the sankharas is gradual. In the First Jhana (state of meditative absorption), speech ceases; in the Second Jhana, thoughts (vitakka-vicara) cease; in the Third Jhana, delight (piti) ceases; in the Fourth Jhana, breathing ceases; …. In the Cessation of Perception and Feeling, perception and feeling ceases.”
Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 44 says: “When a monk is attaining the cessation of Perception and Feeling (i.e. the Cessation of Consciousness), first the speech volition ceases, then the body volition, then the mind volition…. When a monk is emerging from the attainment of Cessation of Perception and Feeling, first the mind volition arises, then the body volition, then the speech volition.”

In other words, when a monk is attaining the Cessation of Perception and Feeling, the following occurs sequentially:
(a) Speech volition, i.e. thinking (vitakka vicara), ceases – this is the Second Jhana.
(b) Body volition, i.e. breathing, ceases – this is the Fourth Jhana
(c) Mind volition, i.e. perception and feeling, ceases – this is cessation of Perception and Feeling, which includes the cessation of all the six consciousnesses.
Thus we see that when the Buddha entered parinibbana (Digha Nikaya, Sutta 16) which is the Cessation of all the six consciousnesses, he did so after attaining the Fourth Jhana. Cessation of Perception and Feeling is the complete shutdown of a living being.
Conversely, to emerge from the attainment of Cessation of Perception and Feeling, first the mind volition is activated, then the body volition, followed by speech volition.
(ii) Kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, mano sankhara is found in Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 12.25 (repeated in Anguttara Nikaya Sutta 4.171) and Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 57.
In Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 12.25 the Buddha said “With ignorance as condition, either by oneself, Ananda, one wills bodily intentions (kaya sankhara), following which arises internally pleasure and pain; or, because of others one wills bodily intentions, following which arises internally, pleasure and pain.” (Similarly for vaci sankhara and mano sankhara)
In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 57 the Buddha said “And what, Punna, is dark action with dark result? Here someone generates an afflictive body volition (kaya sankhara), an afflictive speech volition (vaci sankhara), an afflictive mind volition (mano sankhara), …..”
The Buddha said that kamma (intentional action) is intention or volition. So in these two suttas the Buddha is talking about unskillful or dark kamma. So this second set of sankharas, i.e. kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, mano sankhara, refers to the creation of kamma, which is very different from the first set.

We find that the suttas that discuss Paticca Samuppada (Conditioned Arising) always refer to sankhara as kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, citta sankhara. The suttas that discuss kamma always refer to sankhara as kaya sankhara, vaci sankhara, mano sankhara. So how do we explain sankhara in Paticca Samuppada?
A living being functions through the body, speech, and mind. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 44 we saw that when a monk attains Cessation of Perception and Feeling (which includes cessation of the six consciousnesses) which is the complete shutdown of a living being, first speech volition ceases, then body volition, and finally mind volition. When a monk emerges from the attainment of Cessation of Perception and Feeling, first the mind volition is activated, followed by body volition, and speech volition. This is the ‘coming alive’ of a monk whose six consciousnesses had totally ceased. Thus volition (sankhara) here is connected with the will-to-live which must be activated for the being to come back to life. Similarly in Paticca Samuppada sankhara (volition) should refer to the will-to-live so that the three ways in which a being functions (through mind, body, speech) ‘comes alive’, i.e. mind volition (citta sankhara), body volition (kaya sankhara), speech volition (vaci sankhara).
We note here that consciousness, the next link, is not continuous from birth to death, as many people think. The Buddha says that consciousness arises momentarily every time an external sense object (sight, sound, odour, flavor, touch, or thought) impinges on a sense organ. In one second of time many many times does consciousness arise and pass away. Every time consciousness ceases, it is this ‘will-to-live’ (sankhara) that conditions its arising.

LINK NO. 3 : VINNANA (CONSCIOUSNESS)
As mentioned above, Sankhara (Volition) is the will or volition that Conditions Vinnana (Consciousness) to arise again every time it ceases. Consciousness is explained as “There are these six classes of Consciousness: eye-Consciousness, ear-Consciousness, nose-Consciousness, tongue-Consciousness, body-Consciousness, mind-Consciousness.”
As mentioned above, each of these Consciousness arise when there is a corresponding sense object present (Samyutta Nikaya Sutta 35.93). Without an object consciousness cannot arise because consciousness means being conscious or cognizant of something. The important point to reiterate here is that consciousness is not an unending stream from birth to death, but arises and passes away so fast that in one second, hundreds or thousands of consciousness arise and pass away. Every time it ceases it is Volition (Sankhara – connected with the will-to-live) that conditions its arising.
Whenever consciousness ceases, the living being dies. Hence a Christian saint is reported to have remarked “Every moment I die!”

http://www.tbcm.org.my/conditioned-aris ... suffering/
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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one_awakening
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by one_awakening » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:34 am

Isn't the second link just:

Intentional actions are performed based on ignorance?
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DooDoot
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:06 am

If intentional actions are performed at the 2nd link, why is there another 10 links?

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one_awakening
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by one_awakening » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:06 am
If intentional actions are performed at the 2nd link, why is there another 10 links?
Not sure I understand the question.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:16 am

one_awakening wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:34 am
Isn't the second link just:
Intentional actions are performed based on ignorance?
Basically that sounds correct - volitional formations arise in dependence upon ignorance.

Here is the nidana "definition" for the second link, from SN12.2:

“And what, bhikkhus, are the volitional formations? There are these three kinds of volitional formations: the bodily volitional formation, the verbal volitional formation, the mental volitional formation. These are called the volitional formations."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:26 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:56 am
LINK NO. 3 : VINNANA (CONSCIOUSNESS)
As mentioned above, Sankhara (Volition) is the will or volition that Conditions Vinnana (Consciousness) to arise again every time it ceases.
The DO suttas clearly describe one nidana arising in dependence upon the previous nidana, so in this case vinnana arises in dependence upon sankharas.
If there are no sankharas, there is no consciousness. Does that mean that consciousness ceases if we lose the will to live? :shrug:
Last edited by Dinsdale on Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:06 am
If intentional actions are performed at the 2nd link, why is there another 10 links?
Presumably to explain how these volitional formations lead to suffering.
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:16 am
Here is the nidana "definition" for the second link, from SN12.2:

“And what, bhikkhus, are the volitional formations? There are these three kinds of volitional formations: the bodily volitional formation, the verbal volitional formation, the mental volitional formation. These are called the volitional formations."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
The above translation appears to be erroneous because the word "volitional" does not exist in the Pali. "Volition" first appears at 4th link nama-rupa.
one_awakening wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:02 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:06 am
If intentional actions are performed at the 2nd link, why is there another 10 links?
Not sure I understand the question.
If there is no craving (8th link), how will actions arise? How can actions occur before contact & craving?
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by one_awakening » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:37 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:52 am
Presumably to explain how these volitional formations lead to suffering.
That's what I thought
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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:39 am

one_awakening wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:37 am
That's what I thought
The Pali does not mention "volition" ("cetana") at the 2nd link. The Pali is not "cetana-sankhara". Sometimes what other people think is not true.
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:52 am
Presumably to explain how these volitional formations lead to suffering.
In his 2nd noble truth, the Buddha emphasised craving & becoming that leads to suffering. How can the 2nd noble truth be "true" if it left out the 2nd link but focused on the 8th link? What is the difference between volition & craving? Volition & craving sound the same in DN 22.
"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

DN 22

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Re: Dependant Arising - 2nd Link

Post by Volo » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:41 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:35 am
If there is no craving (8th link), how will actions arise? How can actions occur before contact & craving?
I think commentarial explanation makes a good sense here. Ignorance and (volitional) formations belong to the previous life, so these are the causes of our present existence. The rest till "becoming" (which is actually divided into two, but anyway, these are details) is how we accumulate causes in the present life for the future one. And from becoming till the end is the result: future life.

Otherwise (if we take that all links belong to this very life) it is difficult to understand why becoming and birth occur in the very end. This would mean that previous links occur in the mother's womb. And how then should it be for beings, which arise spontaneously? Do they have different links?
aka Volovsky

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