Marks of existence sutta

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Marks of existence sutta

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:27 am

Hello all. I am trying to find the sutta where the Buddha says the phrases

sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā
sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā
sabbe dhammā anattā

I know its in the Dhammapada, I want to read the actual sutta in which they appear for context.


Thanks in advance. :anjali:
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by Volovsky » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:27 am

From Dhammapada parallels by Anandajoti:
277. “sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā” ti, yadā paññāya passati, atha nibbindatī dukkhe - esa maggo visuddhiyā.
Thag Aññāsikoṇḍaññattheragāthā PTS 69
(quoted:) AN 3.136 Uppādāsuttaṁ PTS 1.286
(quoted:) MNidd PTS 1.94 passim
(quoted:) CNidd comm. to 4, passim
(quoted:) Netti PTS 6, 167, passim
(quoted:) Kv PTS 531
Patna 373 [20.16]
Māgga Gāndhārī 106 [6.10]
Magu Udānavarga 12.5 Mārga

278. “sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā” ti, yadā paññāya passati, atha nibbindatī dukkhe - esa maggo visuddhiyā.
Thag Aññāsikoṇḍaññattheragāthā PTS 69
(quoted:) AN 3.136 Uppādāsuttaṁ PTS 1.286
(quoted:) MNidd PTS 1.94 passim
(quoted:) comm. to 4, CNidd passim
(quoted:) Netti PTS 6, 167 passim
(quoted:) Kv PTS 531
Gāndhārī 107 [6.11]
Magu Udānavarga 12.6 Mārga

279. “sabbe dhammā anattā” ti, yadā paññāya passati, atha nibbindatī dukkhe - esa maggo visuddhiyā.
Thag Aññāsikoṇḍaññattheragāthā PTS 69
(quoted:) AN 3.136 Uppādāsuttaṁ PTS 1.286
(quoted:) MNidd PTS 1.94 passim
(quoted:) CNidd comm. to 4, passim
(quoted:) Netti PTS 6, 167 passim
(quoted:) Peṭak PTS 44, 52
(quoted:) Kv PTS 531
Patna 374 [20.17] Māgga
Gāndhārī 108 [6.12] Magu
Udānavarga 12.8 Mārga
It seems it is present in Canon only as short quotations, without detailed description.

I actually just noticed that whereas the first two stanzas have saṅkhārā, the last has dhammā. What might be the reason? :shrug:

TRobinson465
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:35 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:27 am

It seems it is present in Canon only as short quotations, without detailed description.
Well that doesn't help...
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:45 am

I never heard the phrase " marks of existence" in Pali. What is the Pali word for "existence? :shrug:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

TRobinson465
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:45 am
I never heard the phrase " marks of existence" in Pali. What is the Pali word for "existence? :shrug:
Sutta on "The Three Marks (of existence)" then. whatever the name of the actual sutta i dont care. I am simply asking for where those phrases appear besides the Dhammapada because that provides no context and id like to read the context.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:50 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:27 am
sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā
sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā
sabbe dhammā anattā
AN 3.136 (three phrases) and SN 22.90 (phrases #1 and #3).
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

TRobinson465
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:50 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:27 am
sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā
sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā
sabbe dhammā anattā
AN 3.136 and SN 22.90
Thanks!
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:58 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:27 am
I actually just noticed that whereas the first two stanzas have saṅkhārā, the last has dhammā. What might be the reason? :shrug:
Dve imā, ānanda, dhātuyo — saṅkhatādhātu, asaṅkhatādhātu. Imā kho, ānanda, dve dhātuyo yato jānāti passati — ettāvatāpi kho, ānanda, ‘dhātukusalo bhikkhū’ti alaṃvacanāyā”ti.
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:27 am
It seems it is present in Canon only as short quotations, without detailed description.
SN 22.90 explains. Many suttas explain Nibbana is nicca, sukha and anatta.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5006
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:49 am

There was a thread here, on this topic, eons ago, and the conclusion I remember from it was that the familiar grouping of the Three Marks did not date to the time of the suttas but to the time of the commentaries. I'm not saying the three marks were not mentioned or discussed in the suttas, of course, because they obviously are; I'm saying they weren't seen or discussed as a group.

:namaste:
Kim

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by Volovsky » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:26 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:58 am
SN 22.90 explains. Many suttas explain Nibbana is nicca, sukha and anatta.
That would certainly explain why the last verse has "dhammā". But which suttas exactly do you have in mind? Could you refer to at least a couple the most unambiguous ones among "many"?

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:36 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:49 am
There was a thread here, on this topic, eons ago, and the conclusion I remember from it was that the familiar grouping of the Three Marks did not date to the time of the suttas but to the time of the commentaries. I'm not saying the three marks were not mentioned or discussed in the suttas, of course, because they obviously are; I'm saying they weren't seen or discussed as a group.
They are the subject of the 2nd sermon. SN 22.59. They are always discussed as a group.
Volovsky wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:26 am
That would certainly explain why the last verse has "dhammā". But which suttas exactly do you have in mind? Could you refer to at least a couple the most unambiguous ones among "many"?
MN 1 - Nibbana is not-self.

MN 140 - Nibbana does not fluctuate

Dhp 203 - Nibbana is supreme sukha

SN 43.13-43 - Nibbana is unaging, constant, undisintegrating
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5006
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:49 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:36 pm
Kim OHara wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:49 am
There was a thread here, on this topic, eons ago, and the conclusion I remember from it was that the familiar grouping of the Three Marks did not date to the time of the suttas but to the time of the commentaries. I'm not saying the three marks were not mentioned or discussed in the suttas, of course, because they obviously are; I'm saying they weren't seen or discussed as a group.
They are the subject of the 2nd sermon. SN 22.59. They are always discussed as a group.
Huh?
ATI wrote:SN 22.59 PTS: S iii 66 CDB i 901
Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren
(aka: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic)
Sutta Central wrote:The Characteristic of Not-Self
Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta SN 22.59SN iii 66

In the Deer Park at Varanasi the Buddha teaches the famous second discourse, on not-self with regard to the aggregates, to the group of five monks. At the conclusion, they become perfected ones.
One of the three does not equal the group. Can you provide a better reference?

:namaste:
Kim

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:56 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:49 pm
One of the three does not equal the group. Can you provide a better reference?
I am struggling to follow what you are writing. Are you are newbie to Buddhism or are you a Noble One asking us lowly students a very deep question? Is possibly Wikipedia a trusted media to find the answer to this question? :shrug: SN 22.59 appears to definitely refer to the three characteristics. However, it appears to not answer the OP question because SN 22.59 only appears to apply anatta to sankhara (conditioned things) rather than to sabbe dhamma (all things). It seems SN 22.59 does not answer/include sabbe dhammā anattā.
"What do you think of this, O monks? Is form permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, O Lord."

"Now, that which is impermanent, is it unsatisfactory or satisfactory?"

"Unsatisfactory, O Lord."

"Now, that which is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard that as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?"

"Indeed, not that, O Lord."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html
SN 22.15 sounds clear (but it still appears only about aggregates/conditioned things and does not explain/include sabbe dhammā anattā).
What’s impermanent is suffering (unsatisfactory).
Yadaniccaṃ taṃ dukkhaṃ;

What’s suffering (unsatisfactory) is not-self.
yaṃ dukkhaṃ tadanattā;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.15/en/sujato
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4220
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:41 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:49 am
There was a thread here, on this topic, eons ago, and the conclusion I remember from it was that the familiar grouping of the Three Marks did not date to the time of the suttas but to the time of the commentaries.
We did once have a thread pointing out that the convention of referring to aniccatā, dukkhatā and anattatā as the "three characteristics" (tilakkhaṇaṃ or tīṇi lakkhaṇāni) is a post-canonical development, unexampled anywhere in the Tipiṭaka.

But I don't recall any thread relating the bolder hypothesis that you describe, though I am familiar with it (and I've no doubt missed many threads). The claim that Theravādins inserted dukkhatā later and that in earliest Buddhism the lakṣaṇa probably conformed to one of the Mahāyāna-favoured formulations (e.g., "samskāras are anitya, dharmas are anātmān, nirvāṇa is peace", or something like that) was advanced by Thich Nhat Hanh and Hsing Yun. As with most of this duo's revisionist hypotheses, it's very poorly argued and afaik no scholar in early Buddhist studies takes it seriously.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3132
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Marks of existence sutta

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:46 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:41 am
We did once have a thread pointing out that the ... "three characteristics" (tilakkhaṇaṃ or tīṇi lakkhaṇāni) is a post-canonical development, unexampled anywhere in the Tipiṭaka.
So the 2nd Sermon SN 22.59 title of "Anattalakkhaṇasutta" is a later addition because the term "lakkhaṇa" is not found in the suttas, apart from as "marks" of great man or similar general use. If this is the case, Venerable Dhammanando, what would you call or how would you described anicca, dukkha & anatta using sutta terminology? In other words, how would the 2nd sermon (SN 22.59) be described so it has a title or description similar to the 'Four Noble Truths' or 'Seven Factors of Enlightenment"? Thanks
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: justindesilva, Majestic-12 [Bot], Sam Vara and 96 guests