Momentariness

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammanando
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Re: Momentariness

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:37 am
The Assutavā Sutta appears to say the physical body is not related to "momentariness".
It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But by what is the body seen standing all these years? By the eye of flesh, maṃsacakkhu.

Abhidhammic momentarism, however, is not an account of how things appear to the eye of flesh, but of how they appear to the developed paññindriya of an accomplished yogi. As such, there isn't any conflict between what is said in this sutta and what is said in momentarist theory.

2600htz
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Re: Momentariness

Post by 2600htz » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:08 pm

Hello:

Hmm it is quite obvious that all impermanent things are subject to momentariness, the only relevant question is how long are those moments lasting.

Regards

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DooDoot
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Re: Momentariness

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:06 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:44 pm
Abhidhammic momentarism, however, is not an account of how things appear to the eye of flesh, but of how they appear to the developed paññindriya of an accomplished yogi.
I think there might be a difference between the experiential momentariness of consciousness versus imputing momentariness upon (the) physical matter (that is an object of momentary consciousness). While science says cells of the body keeping reproducing, I have doubts a yogi can discern this because the calming of the breathing leads to rupa jhana then arupa jhana.
How often are your cells replaced?

Your body is constantly replacing old cells with new ones at the rate of millions per second. By the time you finish reading this sentence, 50 million of your cells will have died and been replaced by others. Some are lost through 'wear and tear', some just reach the end of their life, and others deliberately self-destruct. The life cycle of every cell is carefully controlled, so you should always have just the right number of each type of cells.

http://whoami.sciencemuseum.org.uk/whoa ... lsreplaced
:alien:
2600htz wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:08 pm
Hmm it is quite obvious that all impermanent things are subject to momentariness, the only relevant question is how long are those moments lasting.
This is the question. What is a "moment"? How long is a "moment"? In the suttas, it appears the period of time for the experience of insight is longer than "a moment".
And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

chownah
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Re: Momentariness

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:53 am

robertk wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:50 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:16 pm
Volovsky wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:23 am

Body not, but four great elements are. Body is a concept, momentariness applies to absolute reality.
You can only talk about things that you are thinking about....elsewise you will be takling gibberish. The only things that can fit into your mind are concepts....how could anything except for concepts have access to your mind....the only thing which your mind can work on are mental objects which are all abstractions i.e. concepts.
chownah
there are concepts which denote realities
.....
.....
I think it is probably more appropriate to say the there are concepts which we think denote realities. Since we rely entirely on concepts it seems that when we say "realities" we are talking about a concept.

The mind can only deal with concepts. Some "thing" called a "reality" can only be dealt with in the mind if it is a concept......in this case the concept of "thing" and the concept of "reality".

If anything comprises a reality it can not be part of the activity of the mind because there can only be fabricated concepts which are active in the mind because that is the nature of the mind....the mind deals exclusively with concepts and not any of those so called "realities" if by "realities" one means something other than concepts.
chownah

chownah
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Re: Momentariness

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:59 am

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:19 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:16 pm
You can only talk about things that you are thinking about....elsewise you will be takling gibberish. The only things that can fit into your mind are concepts....how could anything except for concepts have access to your mind....the only thing which your mind can work on are mental objects which are all abstractions i.e. concepts.
chownah
If you cannot get to the "real thing", but only to the ideas about the "real thing", which are created by your mind, then you cannot become enlightened, because you would always work on superficial level. Moreover, Buddha wouldn't teach 5 khandas, etc if they would be unperceivable for us.
If one mistakes a concept for some kind of "real thing" then it is probably because one is working on a superficial level....it is superficiality which makes us think that our mental concepts are "real things".

chownah

James Tan
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Re: Momentariness

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:24 am

I suppose we need to differentiate between relative and absolute sense if we're to continue the discussion otherwise going nowhere .
What is reality ?
:reading:

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Momentariness

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:00 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:24 am
I suppose we need to differentiate between relative and absolute sense if we're to continue the discussion otherwise going nowhere .
What is reality ?
Perhaps you are right. I think that when we work to differentiate between the two we should keep in mind that the concepts of "relative" and "absolute" are just exactly concepts. While some people believe that by a differentiation between the two without being fully aware that they are both concepts will be "going" somewhere, I suggest that it is by differentiating between the two while keeping fully in mind that they are both fabricated mental concepts is what will get you somewhere......perhaps it will get you to a better understanding of what the minds position is with respect to experience.....as I have heard it said, "mind preceeds all dhamas".
chownah

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