Dhamma as Phenomena

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one_awakening
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Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by one_awakening »

What does Dhamma as phenomena mean?
“You only lose what you cling to”
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Zom
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by Zom »

Generally (but not always) in Canon it means some mental state. For example, anger is dhamma, a [mental] phenomenon.
paul
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by paul »

"Contemplation of Phenomena (dhammanupassana)
In the context of the fourth foundation of mindfulness, the multivalent
word dhamma (here intended in the plural) has two interconnected
meanings, as the account in the sutta shows. One
meaning is cetasikas, the mental factors, which are now attended
to in their own right apart from their role as coloring the state
of mind, as was done in the previous contemplation. The other
meaning is the elements of actuality, the ultimate constituents
of experience as structured in the Buddha’s teaching.To convey
both senses we render dhamma as “phenomena,” for lack of
a better alternative. But when we do so this should not be taken
to imply the existence of some noumenon or substance behind
the phenomena.The point of the Buddha’s teaching of anatta,
egolessness, is that the basic constituents of actuality are bare
phenomena (suddha-dhamma) occurring without any noumenal
support.
The sutta section on the contemplation of phenomena is
divided into five sub-sections, each devoted to a different set
of phenomena: the five hindrances, the five aggregates, the six
inner and outer sense bases, the seven factors of enlightenment,
and the Four Noble Truths. Among these, the five hindrances
and the seven enlightenment factors are dhamma in the narrower
sense of mental factors, the others are dhamma in the broader
sense of constituents of actuality. (In the third section, however,
on the sense bases, there is a reference to the fetters that arise
through the senses; these can also be included among the mental
factors.) "---"The Noble Eightfold Path", Bikkhu Bodhi.
SarathW
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by SarathW »

Simply anything come to your mind is Dhamma.
Even your question is a Dhamma Phenomena. (investigation)
If you are practicing Satipathana you should know that "I am asking a question" when you ask a question.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by salayatananirodha »

I personally liked dhammā as things. You might say what is a thing? Anything
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TRobinson465
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by TRobinson465 »

Nanavira Thera's piece on nibbana and anatta gives several examples of the various uses of the phenomena version of "dhamma"

https://quangduc.com/a33441/nibbana-and-anatta
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by one_awakening »

How does one know when dhamma as phenomenon refers to mental states or refers to anything?
“You only lose what you cling to”
paul
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by paul »

“Dhamma” has three main meanings, the liberating law and the doctrine which expounds it (the bearer) on the one hand and phenomena on the other. When phenomena are investigated correctly their relevance to the liberating law is experienced as insight:

“As one extracts oil from sesame seed, so one can extract the ultimate realities from the conventional realities. For example “being” and “man” and “woman” are concepts suggesting that the things they signify possess irreducible ultimate unity. However when we wisely investigate these things with the analytical tools of the Abhidhamma, we find they do not possess the ultimacy implied by the concepts, but only a conventional reality as an assemblage of impermanent factors, of mental and physical processes. Thus by examining the conventional realities with wisdom, we eventually arrive at the objective actualities that lie behind our conventional constructs. It is these objective actualities- the dhammas, which maintain their intrinsic natures independently of the mind’s constructive functions- that form the ultimate realities of the Abhidhamma.”—-“A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”, Bikkhu Bodhi.

Note: The practitioner doesn't have to be knowledgable about Abhidhamma, the simple underlined process is the important skill.
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by Bundokji »

paul wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:44 am “Dhamma” has three main meanings, the liberating law and the doctrine which expounds it (the bearer) on the one hand and phenomena on the other. When phenomena are investigated correctly their relevance to the liberating law is experienced as insight:

“As one extracts oil from sesame seed, so one can extract the ultimate realities from the conventional realities. For example “being” and “man” and “woman” are concepts suggesting that the things they signify possess irreducible ultimate unity. However when we wisely investigate these things with the analytical tools of the Abhidhamma, we find they do not possess the ultimacy implied by the concepts, but only a conventional reality as an assemblage of impermanent factors, of mental and physical processes. Thus by examining the conventional realities with wisdom, we eventually arrive at the objective actualities that lie behind our conventional constructs. It is these objective actualities- the dhammas, which maintain their intrinsic natures independently of the mind’s constructive functions- that form the ultimate realities of the Abhidhamma.”—-“A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma”, Bikkhu Bodhi.

Note: The practitioner doesn't have to be knowledgable about Abhidhamma, the simple underlined process is the important skill.
The main difficulty facing me is how to integrate the above with the fact that the law itself is another phenomena. While the law explains phenomena, that does not make it any less of a phenomena. The question becomes: whence the special status of the law came from?

Also Bikkhu Bodhi mentioned "objective actualities". The term objective means "mind independent". Phenomena according to the Buddha's teachings are mind dependent.

Why the law of Kamma works?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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mikenz66
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by mikenz66 »

one_awakening wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:44 am How does one know when dhamma as phenomenon refers to mental states or refers to anything?
See this post, which gives links to various usages in the SN and MN: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5584#p422383

The short answer to your question is that it is quite obvious in the Pali sentences. From the quote above:
Bodhi wrote: When plural dhammā acquires a more technical nuance, in contexts with ontological overtones, I render it “phenomena.” For instance, paṭicca-samuppannā dhammā are “dependently arisen phenomena” (II 26,7),
“Mendicants, I will teach you dependent origination and dependently originated phenomena.
“Paṭiccasamuppādañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi paṭiccasamuppanne ca dhamme.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato#1.2
and each of the five aggregates is loke lokadhamma, “a world-phenomenon in the world” that the Buddha has penetrated and taught (III 139,22 foll.).
Bodhi translation wrote: “There is, bhikkhus, a world-phenomenon in the world to which the Tathagata has awakened and broken through.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.94/en/bodhi#sc6
Sujato translation, and Pali wrote: There is a temporal phenomenon in the world that the Realized One understands and comprehends.
Atthi, bhikkhave, loke lokadhammo, taṃ tathāgato abhisambujjhati abhisameti;
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.94/en/sujato#4.1
and so on...
Unfortunately, for those of us with only very basic Pali knowledge, the different forms (declensions?)of the words (dhamma/dhammo/etc) can be challenging...

:heart:
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one_awakening
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by one_awakening »

What is the difference then between dhammas and sankharas?
“You only lose what you cling to”
santa100
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Re: Dhamma as Phenomena

Post by santa100 »

one_awakening wrote:What is the difference then between dhammas and sankharas?
There're different meanings for both terms. See their definitions here and here. Per the definitions, the 4th meaning of sankhara is a subset to the 3rd meaning of dhamma:
It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (sankhata) and conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe sankhāra aniccā ... dukkhā). In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element (asankhata-dhātu), i.e. Nibbāna (e.g. in sabbe dhammā anattā, "all things are without a self").
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