if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

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SarathW
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if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:50 am

if things are impermanat (Anitya changed to Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?
Above idea came from another post and I thought better to have a discussion on this.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=435#p485563
Last edited by SarathW on Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anitya) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:20 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:50 am
if things are impermanat (Anitya) where does Karma gets stored?
Above idea came from another post and I thought better to have a discussion on this.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=435#p485563
Why are you posting in Sanskrit? The suttas say results of kamma remain until exhausted. If it takes billions of years to exhaust the kamma; its still impermanent or "anicca".

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Re: if things are impermanat (Anitya) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by alfa » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:20 am
SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:50 am
if things are impermanat (Anitya) where does Karma gets stored?
Above idea came from another post and I thought better to have a discussion on this.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=435#p485563
Why are you posting in Sanskrit? The suttas say results of kamma remain until exhausted. If it takes billions of years to exhaust the kamma; its still impermanent or "anicca".
Do you exhaust karma by going through them, birth after birth?

SarathW
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:03 am

Do you exhaust karma by going through them, birth after birth?
Buddha rejected this idea.
The only way to fully exhaust kamma is after the Parinibbana of an Arahant.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:17 am

The suttas say results of kamma remain until exhausted.
Cetana (a mind moment) is the kamma.
According to Buddhist teaching consciousness arise and perishes very past.
It does not last billions of years.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:55 am

you don't have to answer where karma is or how it works


enough to know karma

pegembara
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by pegembara » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:58 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:03 am
Do you exhaust karma by going through them, birth after birth?
Buddha rejected this idea.
The only way to fully exhaust kamma is after the Parinibbana of an Arahant.
Looks like old kamma is here to stay until the final end or permanent cessation. Kamma is not exhausted by going through them birth after birth but by not creating new ones and exhausting/experiencing old/stored kamma in the last existence. All that is experienced by arahants and others is old kamma.
“Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear… The nose…The tongue… The body… The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.

“And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.

“And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma.

“And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_145.html
And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of
contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble
eightfold path – right view, right aim, right speech, right
action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right
concentration – is the path of practice leading to the
cessation of kamma.
Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in
this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in
this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of
kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way,
and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma
in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as
the cessation of kamma.
Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma
by way of body, speech and mind.
And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play?
Contact, bhikkhus.
And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be
experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of
common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of
the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human
world, kamma to be experienced in the heavenly worlds.
And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of
three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now,
that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which
arises following that...
Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.

Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:14 am, edited 5 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Bundokji
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by Bundokji » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:00 am

Is Kamma a thing?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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DooDoot
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:58 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:17 am
The suttas say results of kamma remain until exhausted.
Cetana (a mind moment) is the kamma.
Please try to not misrepresent what I post. I said the "results", as follows:
Then the hell-wardens torture [the evil-doer] with what's called a five-fold imprisonment. They drive a red-hot iron stake through one hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other hand, they drive a red-hot iron stake through one foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the other foot, they drive a red-hot iron stake through the middle of his chest. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted :o .

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:shock:
SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:17 am
According to Buddhist teaching consciousness arise and perishes very fast.
It does not last billions of years.
Results of kamma is an object of consciousness. Its like getting whipped 100 times. Each whip is one moment of consciousness. 100 mind moments of torture in hell. Please do not be negligent. :geek:
And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the king: 'This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him at noon with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being shot with three hundred spears a day :shock: , experience pain & distress from that cause?"

"Even if he were to be shot with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain & distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It takes one mind moment of wrong view & action to result in billions of mind moments in hell. :shock: :P :pig:
"Then King Yama says, 'My good man, didn't the thought occur to you — observant & mature: "I, too, am subject to death, have not gone beyond death. I'd better do good with body, speech, & mind"?'

"'I couldn't, lord. I was heedless, lord. I was in love with Sanskrit, Hindu gurus & Western liberalism.

Then the hell-wardens lay him down and slice him with axes. Then they hold him feet up & head down and slice him with adzes. Then they harness him to a chariot and drive him back & forth over ground that is burning, blazing, & glowing. Then they make him climb up & down a vast mountain of embers that is burning, blazing, & glowing. Then they hold him feet up & head down and plunge him into a red-hot copper cauldron that is burning, blazing, & glowing. There he boils with bubbles foaming. And as he is boiling there with bubbles foaming, he goes now up, he goes now down, he goes now around. There he feels painful, racking, piercing feelings, yet he does not die as long as his evil kamma is not exhausted.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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SarathW
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:36 am

Thank you, DD
So one kamma lead to many Vipaka like one mango seed can produce many fruits.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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robertk
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by robertk » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:19 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:50 am
if things are impermanat (Anitya changed to Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?
King Milinda questioned Venerable Nagasena : "Where, venerable
Sir, is Kamma ?" Venerable Nagesena replied : "O king, Kamma
is not stored somewhere in this fleeting consciousness or in any
Other part of the body. But dependent on mind and matter it
rests manifesting itself at the opportune moment, just as mangoes
are not said to be stored somewhere in the mango tree, but depen dent on the mango tree they lie, springing up in due season.

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Zom
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by Zom » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:12 am

Is Kamma a thing?
It is a process, and a process isn't stored anywhere 8-)

TRobinson465
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:23 am

All kamma becomes ahosikamma that ends at the mahaparanibbana. Therefore kamma is not permanent. This is an interesting question. mostly i hear about kamma and anatta. (if there is no self what experiences the result of kamma, etc.) rather than kamma and anicca
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:30 am

Id also like to point out that you must not try to work out the precise workings of kamma. If you did you would go insane. It cannot be rationalized by the human mind. only seen and understood directly by abhiññā.
“There are these four inconceivables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

“The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha] is an inconceivable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

“The jhāna-range of a person in jhāna [i.e, the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhāna].…

“The [precise working out of the] results of kamma.…

“Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an inconceivable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

“These are the four inconceivables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN4_77.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: if things are impermanat (Anicca) where does Karma gets stored?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:22 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:30 am
Id also like to point out that you must not try to work out the precise workings of kamma. If you did you would go insane.
You might be coming to a too quick conclusion about this sutta. I started a topic on it, here.

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