Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:30 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:23 pm
But perhaps we have a different understanding of what "being unhappy" or "displeased" about the teachings of one's teacher means.

I find that "being unhappy" or "displeased" comes into play only after one's questions have festered unaddressed for a while.
Ah, I see. Well, that's not what the sutta, or I, am addressing, which explains why you can't relate to it.

SarathW
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by SarathW » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:27 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:56 pm
Read the final paragraph again. "Delight is the root of suffering.... the bhikkhus did not delight in the Buddha's words"

If they delighted in him saying that delight itself is the root of suffering, it wouldn't make sense. This, in my opinion is an example of some dry humor in the Suttas which is not directly traceable to the Buddha but perhaps Ananda or later reciters.
Good point, however, I have another possibility.
Some people translate this as monks being delighted after Buddha's talk.
Perhaps this is another way to protect the mistranslation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by binocular » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:13 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:30 pm
Ah, I see. Well, that's not what the sutta, or I, am addressing, which explains why you can't relate to it.
We're discussing an apparently peculiar ending of a sutta, in terms of the audience's response to a teaching by the Buddha.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

santa100
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by santa100 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:27 am

Anyway there was a happy ending. Ven. Bodhi's note in "Middle Length Discourses":
The bhikkhus did not delight in the Buddha's words, apparently because the discourse probed too deeply into the tender regions of their own conceit, and perhaps their residual brahmanic views. At a later time, MA tells us, when their pride had been humbled, the Buddha expounded to these same bhikkhus the Gotamaka Sutta (AN 3:123/i.276), in the course of which they all attained arahantship.
And Ven. Thanissaro shared similar thought in his intro. section to MN 1:
MN 1 wrote:If the listeners present at this discourse were indeed interested in fitting Buddhist teachings into a Samkhyan mold, then it's small wonder that they were displeased — one of the few places where we read of a negative reaction to the Buddha's words. They had hoped to hear his contribution to their project, but instead they hear their whole pattern of thinking & theorizing attacked as ignorant & ill-informed. The Commentary tells us, though, they were later able to overcome their displeasure and eventually attain Awakening on listening to the discourse reported in AN 3.123.

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mikenz66
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:32 am

Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's note from the Commentary:
The bhikkhus did not delight in the Buddha’s words, apparently because the discourse probed too deeply into the tender regions of their own conceit, and perhaps their residual brahmanic views. At a later time, MA tells us, when their pride had been humbled, the Buddha expounded to these same bhikkhus the Gotamaka Sutta (AN 3:123/i.276) [AN 3.125 with his new numbering, as on Sutta Central: https://suttacentral.net/an3.125], in the course of which they all attained arahantship.
From Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to AN 3.125:
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Vesālī at the Gotamaka Shrine. ...

Mp: “In the first twenty years after the enlightenment, the Tathāgata often stayed among the deva communities (devakulesuyeva): sometimes at the Cāpāla Shrine, sometimes at the Sārandada, sometimes at the Bahuputta, and sometimes at the Gotamaka. Since he was living at Vesālī at this time, he stayed at the abode of the Gotamaka spirit.” Mp explains that this sutta was spoken as a sequel to the Mūlapariyāya Sutta (MN 1). The background story, told at Ps I 56–59, and translated at Bodhi 2006: 82–86, [The Discourse on the Root of Existence: The Mūlapariyāya Sutta and Its Commentaries. 2nd ed. Kandy, Sri Lanka: Buddhist Publication Society. [http://bps.lk/cover.php?id=bp210s]] relates that a group of brahmins had taken ordination under the Buddha and quickly mastered his teachings. Filled with pride on account of their learning, they no longer went to listen to the Dhamma. The Buddha spoke the Mūlapariyāya Sutta to cut down their pride. Unable to understand it, they were humbled and apologized to the Buddha. Sometime later the Buddha spoke this Gotamaka Sutta to guide them to arahantship.
:heart:
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SarathW
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 am

At one time the Buddha was staying near Vesālī, at the Gotamaka Tree-shrine.
Ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā vesāliyaṃ viharati gotamake cetiye.
There the Buddha addressed the mendicants:
Tatra kho bhagavā bhikkhū āmantesi:
“Mendicants!”
“bhikkhavo”ti.
“Venerable sir,” they replied.
“Bhadante”ti te bhikkhū bhagavato paccassosuṃ.
The Buddha said this:
Bhagavā etadavoca:

“Mendicants, I teach based on direct knowledge, not without direct knowledge.
“Abhiññāyāhaṃ, bhikkhave, dhammaṃ desemi, no anabhiññāya.
I teach with reasons, not without them.
Sanidānāhaṃ, bhikkhave, dhammaṃ desemi, no anidānaṃ.
I teach with a demonstrable basis, not without it.
Sappāṭihāriyāhaṃ, bhikkhave, dhammaṃ desemi, no appāṭihāriyaṃ.
Since this is so, you should follow my advice and instruction.
Tassa mayhaṃ, bhikkhave, abhiññāya dhammaṃ desayato no anabhiññāya, sanidānaṃ dhammaṃ desayato no anidānaṃ, sappāṭihāriyaṃ dhammaṃ desayato no appāṭihāriyaṃ, karaṇīyo ovādo, karaṇīyā anusāsanī.
This is enough for you to feel joyful, delighted, and happy:
Alañca pana vo, bhikkhave, tuṭṭhiyā, alaṃ attamanatāya, alaṃ somanassāya:
‘The Blessed One is a fully awakened Buddha! The teaching is well explained! The Saṅgha is practicing well!’”
‘sammāsambuddho bhagavā, svākkhāto dhammo, suppaṭipanno saṃgho’”ti.

That is what the Buddha said.
Idamavoca bhagavā.
Satisfied, the mendicants were happy with what the Buddha said.
Attamanā te bhikkhū bhagavato bhāsitaṃ abhinandunti.
And while this discourse was being spoken, the galaxy shook.
Imasmiñca pana veyyākaraṇasmiṃ bhaññamāne sahassī lokadhātu akampitthāti.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.125/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by binocular » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:24 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:32 am
Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi's note from the Commentary:
The bhikkhus did not delight in the Buddha’s words, apparently because the discourse probed too deeply into the tender regions of their own conceit, and perhaps their residual brahmanic views. At a later time, MA tells us, when their pride had been humbled, the Buddha expounded to these same bhikkhus the Gotamaka Sutta (AN 3:123/i.276) [AN 3.125 with his new numbering, as on Sutta Central: https://suttacentral.net/an3.125], in the course of which they all attained arahantship.
From Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to AN 3.125:
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Vesālī at the Gotamaka Shrine. ...

Mp: “In the first twenty years after the enlightenment, the Tathāgata often stayed among the deva communities (devakulesuyeva): sometimes at the Cāpāla Shrine, sometimes at the Sārandada, sometimes at the Bahuputta, and sometimes at the Gotamaka. Since he was living at Vesālī at this time, he stayed at the abode of the Gotamaka spirit.” Mp explains that this sutta was spoken as a sequel to the Mūlapariyāya Sutta (MN 1). The background story, told at Ps I 56–59, and translated at Bodhi 2006: 82–86, [The Discourse on the Root of Existence: The Mūlapariyāya Sutta and Its Commentaries. 2nd ed. Kandy, Sri Lanka: Buddhist Publication Society. [http://bps.lk/cover.php?id=bp210s]] relates that a group of brahmins had taken ordination under the Buddha and quickly mastered his teachings. Filled with pride on account of their learning, they no longer went to listen to the Dhamma. The Buddha spoke the Mūlapariyāya Sutta to cut down their pride. Unable to understand it, they were humbled and apologized to the Buddha. Sometime later the Buddha spoke this Gotamaka Sutta to guide them to arahantship.
santa100 wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:27 am
And Ven. Thanissaro shared similar thought in his intro. section to MN 1:
MN 1 wrote:If the listeners present at this discourse were indeed interested in fitting Buddhist teachings into a Samkhyan mold, then it's small wonder that they were displeased — one of the few places where we read of a negative reaction to the Buddha's words. They had hoped to hear his contribution to their project, but instead they hear their whole pattern of thinking & theorizing attacked as ignorant & ill-informed. The Commentary tells us, though, they were later able to overcome their displeasure and eventually attain Awakening on listening to the discourse reported in AN 3.123.
IOW, it seems they made some rookie mistakes:
-- declaring allegiance to a new teacher without having relinquished their previous allegiances;
-- declaring victory too quickly.

That explains how they could be unhappy with what they heard by their (new) teacher.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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