Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

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James Tan
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Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:46 am

Greetings ,

This is interesting to see Buddha's disciples not happy with Buddha's teaching ? Can anyone explain why ?

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi

“ That is what the Blessed One said, but those bhikkhus did not delight in the Blessed One’s words .”

Thanks .
:reading:

SarathW
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:53 am

It appears this Sutta was the result of Dhamma Desana given to a newly ordained monks who were originally from Brhamana sects.
They did not like when Buddha said that Nibbana is not a thing.
Further discussion on this topic.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ho ... py/8630/28
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:11 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:53 am
They did not like when Buddha said that Nibbana is not a thing.
The Buddha didn't say Nibbana is not a thing. Maybe AN 2.23 can help.
He directly knows Nibbāna as Nibbāna. Having directly known Nibbāna as Nibbāna, he should not conceive himself as Nibbāna, he should not conceive himself in Nibbāna, he should not conceive himself apart from Nibbāna, he should not conceive Nibbāna to be ‘mine,’ he should not delight in Nibbāna. Why is that? Because he must fully understand it, I say.

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.


binocular
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by binocular » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:58 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:46 am
This is interesting to see Buddha's disciples not happy with Buddha's teaching ? Can anyone explain why ?
How can they be his disciples if they're not happy with his teaching??
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:58 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:46 am
This is interesting to see Buddha's disciples not happy with Buddha's teaching ? Can anyone explain why ?
How can they be his disciples if they're not happy with his teaching??
In the context of MN1, the term used is abhinandati, which means that the Bhikkhus did not rejoice at or approve of what the Buddha said on this occasion. Disciples don't need to be happy with every detail of their teacher's instructions. Providing they remain monks, they make their position clear.

I don't know of another sutta where this formula is used, and I have heard it explained that this is an invitation by whoever compiled it to pay very close attention. This seems quite reasonable.

justindesilva
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:53 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:58 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:46 am
This is interesting to see Buddha's disciples not happy with Buddha's teaching ? Can anyone explain why ?
How can they be his disciples if they're not happy with his teaching??
These desciples who were not happy with the teachings of lord budda had been from the brahmans who were versed in vedanta and yet understood from their initial learnings. They saw the mahabuta in their view of former understsnding of brahmanic view. This is why lord budda explained Mulaparyaya sutta and explained that for a non skilled person water is water earth is earth fire is fire and he takes delight in each. For an arhant water is water fire is fire earth is earth but did not take delight in it as they viwed those in their roots.

dharmacorps
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:56 pm

Read the final paragraph again. "Delight is the root of suffering.... the bhikkhus did not delight in the Buddha's words"

If they delighted in him saying that delight itself is the root of suffering, it wouldn't make sense. This, in my opinion is an example of some dry humor in the Suttas which is not directly traceable to the Buddha but perhaps Ananda or later reciters.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:33 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:56 pm
Read the final paragraph again. "Delight is the root of suffering.... the bhikkhus did not delight in the Buddha's words"

If they delighted in him saying that delight itself is the root of suffering, it wouldn't make sense. This, in my opinion is an example of some dry humor in the Suttas which is not directly traceable to the Buddha but perhaps Ananda or later reciters.
I'd not noticed that before, but yes, it's the same term used. That's brilliant! Many thanks for pointing that out, dharmacorps.

binocular
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by binocular » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:09 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28 am
Disciples don't need to be happy with every detail of their teacher's instructions.
I can't relate to this idea, at least not when it comes to students who have freely submitted to a teacher, in contrast to students who are in some mandatory/compulsory course of education.
Providing they remain monks, they make their position clear.
I don't understand what you mean here.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by binocular » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:45 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:56 pm
Read the final paragraph again. "Delight is the root of suffering.... the bhikkhus did not delight in the Buddha's words"

If they delighted in him saying that delight itself is the root of suffering, it wouldn't make sense.
Delighting in the Dhamma always makes sense. Delight in sensual pleasures is suffering; but delight in the Dhamma isn't.
/.../
"These, bhikkhus, are the eight wonderful and marvellous qualities in this Dhamma and Discipline, seeing which bhikkhus delight in this Dhamma and Discipline."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
This, in my opinion is an example of some dry humor in the Suttas which is not directly traceable to the Buddha but perhaps Ananda or later reciters.
Then the sutta is some kind of hybrid?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:59 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:09 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28 am
Disciples don't need to be happy with every detail of their teacher's instructions.
I can't relate to this idea, at least not when it comes to students who have freely submitted to a teacher, in contrast to students who are in some mandatory/compulsory course of education.
Not relating to it is fine. It's a perfectly intelligible idea, though; it just means that "discipleship" does not logically imply happiness with all aspects of instruction. One might not like an aspect of what one is told, yet remain a disciple. One might temporarily reject feedback, for example, yet stick with the teacher out of faith, or the inductive knowledge that one previously saw no sense in the advice one was given, but one sees it now. (This was something that disciples of Ajahn Chah often noticed.)
Monks, there are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, & pleasant practice with quick intuition.
Christ's disciples also frequently misunderstood his teaching and found it hard to accept. Discipleship is different from continual appreciation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipita ... .than.html
I don't understand what you mean here.
I mean that the monks, by not disrobing, remained disciples of the Buddha, despite not delighting in this teaching. As per above.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:07 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:45 am

Then the sutta is some kind of hybrid?
Every sutta is a hybrid in the sense of being a mixture of what the Buddha (or someone) said, and somebody else's recollection and interpretation of that utterance. All those suttas where the results of the discourse are outlined (i.e. who achieved enlightenment, who commented, who walked away, etc.); and all those which read like a dramatic dialogue; and all those suttas where it starts with the details of where the Blessed One was staying and what he was doing: the Buddha didn't actually speak those words, did he?

binocular
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by binocular » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:15 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:59 am
Not relating to it is fine. It's a perfectly intelligible idea, though; it just means that "discipleship" does not logically imply happiness with all aspects of instruction.
/.../
Christ's disciples also frequently misunderstood his teaching and found it hard to accept.
Indeed, various biblical passages about murmuring and grumbling come to mind.

But why not clarify any misunderstanding on the spot? Why wait and let it fester, so that one ends up murmuring and grumbling?
Why the insistence on one-way communication where the teacher speaks, and the disciples are supposed to be silent receptacles?
One might not like an aspect of what one is told, yet remain a disciple. One might temporarily reject feedback, for example, yet stick with the teacher out of faith, or the inductive knowledge that one previously saw no sense in the advice one was given, but one sees it now. (This was something that disciples of Ajahn Chah often noticed.)
Talk about doing it the hard way!
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Why does the monks not happy with Buddha's teaching ?

Post by binocular » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:18 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:07 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:45 am
Then the sutta is some kind of hybrid?
Every sutta is a hybrid in the sense of being a mixture of what the Buddha (or someone) said, and somebody else's recollection and interpretation of that utterance.
A hybrid between what was said by someone who was enlightened, and what was said by someone who wasn't enlightened ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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