Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

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SarathW
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Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:24 am

Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?
In the following video Ven. Dhammajiva said that it is unwholesome to criticise the ordained monks. I can recall the same idea came when I discuss the matters relating to Ven. Abhayaratanalankara. The argument here is that we may have unwholesome thoughts and feeling towards an Ariya monk without our knowledge which will cause us to suffer in the hell.
To what extent we can discuss a teaching or the behavior of another monk if we consider the teaching or the behavior is inadequate?
The following video in the Sinhalese language.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by salayatananirodha » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:38 am

Know the dhamma, know right from wrong. Offer advice out of compassion; you can use someone's wrongdoing perhaps as a reference point, but 'look not to the fault of others' and 'spare details of someone's wrongdoing' are buddha's advice coming to mind, in brief. Don't take the measure of other people.. you can't know them until you live with them for a long time. Without sources, I very briefly paraphrased quotes, so if I left out critical details, please correct me.

Oh, and a good dhamma person will adhere to one who (constructively) criticizes them, like one who reveals a lost treasure
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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robertk
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by robertk » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:42 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:24 am
Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?
In the following video Ven. Dhammajiva said that it is unwholesome to criticise the ordained monks. I can recall the same idea came when I discuss the matters relating to Ven. Abhayaratanalankara. The argument here is that we may have unwholesome thoughts and feeling towards an Ariya monk without our knowledge which will cause us to suffer in the hell.
You mean people who criticize the Mahavihara and Buddhaghosa? It is unfortunate kamma.

James Tan
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:12 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:42 am
SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:24 am
Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?
In the following video Ven. Dhammajiva said that it is unwholesome to criticise the ordained monks. I can recall the same idea came when I discuss the matters relating to Ven. Abhayaratanalankara. The argument here is that we may have unwholesome thoughts and feeling towards an Ariya monk without our knowledge which will cause us to suffer in the hell.
You mean people who criticize the Mahavihara and Buddhaghosa? It is unfortunate kamma.
Does criticism and slandering is the same ? How to differentiate if both are not the same ?

I suppose Unfortunate kamma not different from unwholesome kamma ?
:reading:

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:29 am

In the Buddha's time, laypeople complained about monks to the Buddha quite often, and so the Buddha made the 227 patimoka rules, and the 2000-or-so minor rules.

SarathW
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:36 am

What if a monk breaks the Vinaya?
According to the video, it is unwholesome to criticise a monk even if he breaks the rule due to the fact we do not know the reason behind it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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robertk
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by robertk » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:39 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:12 am
robertk wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:42 am
SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:24 am
Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?
In the following video Ven. Dhammajiva said that it is unwholesome to criticise the ordained monks. I can recall the same idea came when I discuss the matters relating to Ven. Abhayaratanalankara. The argument here is that we may have unwholesome thoughts and feeling towards an Ariya monk without our knowledge which will cause us to suffer in the hell.
You mean people who criticize the Mahavihara and Buddhaghosa? It is unfortunate kamma.
I suppose Unfortunate kamma not different from unwholesome kamma ?
yes unfortunate and unwholesome is the same.

James Tan
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:18 am

Dictionary :

Criticism = the expression of disapproval of someone or something on the basis of perceived faults or mistakes.

Slandering = the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.


I guess both are different .

Slandering is something not right and bad but criticism with good reason intention should be constructive not necessarily bad.

Right ?
:reading:

chownah
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:32 pm

Is it wholesome to criticize anyone? Consider:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
AN 4.73 PTS: A ii 77
Sappurisa Sutta: A Person of Integrity
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
An excerpt:
"There is the case where a person of integrity, when asked, does not reveal another person's bad points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of another person's bad points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'
The entire sutta is a good read.....especially if one wants to evaluate politicians and other officials.
chownah

SarathW
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:50 pm

Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points, to say nothing of when asked.
I can't make any sense of this statement in above sutta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:55 pm

The entire sutta is a good read.....especially if one wants to evaluate politicians and other officials.
Aren't people in politics are responsible for the public?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by chownah » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:38 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:50 pm
Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points, to say nothing of when asked.
I can't make any sense of this statement in above sutta.
It means that a person of integrity will admit to their faults even if no one else is asking about them, and especially they will admit their faults if someone asks about them.

For instance, if I am presenting an arguement to convince someone of something and there is some inconsistency in my arguement which I know about then if I am a person of integrity I will point out the inconsistency of my arguement readily without being asked about what inconsistencies my arguement might have....and certainly I would admit to inconsistencies or errors when asked about them if I was a person of integrity.
chownah

santa100
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by santa100 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:24 pm

SarathW wrote:In the following video Ven. Dhammajiva said that it is unwholesome to criticise the ordained monks. I can recall the same idea came when I discuss the matters relating to Ven. Abhayaratanalankara. The argument here is that we may have unwholesome thoughts and feeling towards an Ariya monk without our knowledge which will cause us to suffer in the hell.
If that was the case then the Vatican Church must've done the right thing by consistently sweeping countless cases of sexual abuse by their priests under the rug! Remember the highlighted key words above. If the monk is naughty, then he's not really a monk and so it's all fair game to expose his evil deeds. See something say something, unless you want to turn the Buddhist Sangha into another refuge for the pedophiles or sexual perverts.

James Tan
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:53 pm

I was wondering why the Buddha never caution the lay people not to complain and criticise the monk disciples in the first place if that would cause bad kamma ? For example , if a monk is carrying a Gold pot on almsround , what would lay people think ? What about if the robber eyeing on the monk ?!
So, instead of commiting bad kamma , the person complaint about the monk owning a Gold pot , would actually , since the incident already saving the monastic for over two thousand years from being continuously criticise and slandering by worldly people !
Wouldn't that a great merits to be gained ?
:reading:

2600htz
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Re: Is it unwholesome to criticise ordained monks?

Post by 2600htz » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:13 pm

Hello:

Criticism is a word that might be taken out of context, but i think a lay person can certainly disapprove the behavior of a monk.
Dhaniya then went to King Bimbisāra’s house and sat down on the appointed seat. The King approached Dhaniya, bowed down to him, and sat down to one side. He then said, “Is it true, Venerable, that I have given the wood held by the King—meant for the repair of the town and put aside in case of emergencies—to you?”

“Yes, great king.”

“We kings are very busy—we may give and not remember. Please remind me, Venerable.”

“Do you remember, great king, when you were first anointed, speaking these words: ‘Let the ascetics and brahmins enjoy gifts of grass, sticks, and water’?”

“I remember, Venerable. There are ascetics and brahmins who have a sense of conscience, who are afraid of wrongdoing and desirous of training. They have a sense of conscience even in regard to small matters. What was uttered by me was meant for these, and it concerned what’s ownerless in the wilderness. Yet you, Venerable, imagine that you can take wood not given to you by means of this trick? But how could I presume to beat, imprison, or banish an ascetic or a brahmin living in my kingdom? Go, you’re free because of your status, but don’t do such a thing again.”
Regards.

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