Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
SarathW
Posts: 10504
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:19 am

Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralle to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by pitakele » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:02 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:19 am
Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?
In what way do you think they are in parallel?
now here = nowhere

SarathW
Posts: 10504
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:16 am

Raga means taking things as permanent
Dosa leads to Dukkha
Moha means not understanding Anatta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Garrib
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by Garrib » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:48 pm

I've never considered this possibility but it seems interesting.

Like you said, raga seems to be associated with failing to consider that pleasant sense objects and the gratification derived from them are totally impermanent. Dosa is our unskillful response to painful feeling/sickness/aging/death/suffering (dukkha). Moha seems strongly related to wrong view - in particular imagining some substantial essential core at the center of things/existence?

On the other hand, Raga also leads to dukkha, and is associated with self-gratification/identity creation (as the consumer of sensual pleasures, as the one who needs to be gratified etc...). Dukkha is also impermanent, and our failure to recognize this strengthens aversion. And delusion is not just about thinking in terms of identity, but also failing to see the impermanence of all conditioned things, and not understanding dukkha, right?

I think you might be on to something - the Dhamma is certainly profound and subtle with many levels to be explored.

SarathW
Posts: 10504
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:04 pm

I've never considered this possibility but it seems interesting. [/quote
My question simply based on the notion that Nibbana is the elimination of attachment, aversion, and ignorance.
Another way to describe Nibbana is to realising Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
Which means these two seems to have a co-relation.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by paul » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:29 pm

Since greed and hate stem from ignorance, and non-self and suffering are caused by impermanence, it boils down to an opposition between wisdom (recognition of impermanence) and ignorance.

SarathW
Posts: 10504
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:48 pm

non-self and suffering are caused by impermanence
This statement does not make any sense to me.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by pitakele » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:16 am
Raga means taking things as permanent
Dosa leads to Dukkha
Moha means not understanding Anatta.
Rāga, dosa and moha are all sankhārā possessing tilakkhana. I think it is possible to interchange any of them in the above three phrases, e.g. when the mind is obsessed by dosa, it is taken as permanent, moha is the underlying cause of all dukkha, and rāga can intensify perceptions of 'I, me, mine'.

In the Anattalakkhana Sutta, Buddha teaches about sankhārā in this way (translated here as 'mental formations')
"What do you think of this, O monks? Are mental formations permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent, O Lord."
"Now, those that are impermanent, are they unsatisfactory or satisfactory?"
"Unsatisfactory, O Lord."
"Now, those that are impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard them as: 'They are mine, this I am, this is my self'?"
"Indeed, not that, O Lord."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html
now here = nowhere

paul
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: Are Raga, Dosa and moha in paralale to Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta?

Post by paul » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:10 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:48 pm
non-self and suffering are caused by impermanence
This statement does not make any sense to me.
"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir.”—-SN 22:59

"When impermanence is seen, insight into the other two
marks closely follows. Since the aggregates are constantly breaking
up, we cannot pin our hopes on them for any lasting satisfaction.
Whatever expectations we lay on them are bound to be
dashed to pieces by their inevitable change. Thus when seen with
insight they are dukkha, suffering, in the deepest sense. Then, as
the aggregates are impermanent and unsatisfactory, they cannot
be taken as self."---"The Noble Eightfold Path", Bikkhu Bodhi.

"The other two characteristics of conditioned existence – dukkha
(unsatisfactoriness) and anattã (absence of a self) – become evident
as a consequence of a direct experience and thereby realistic appreciation
of the truth of impermanence.
The discourses frequently point to this relationship between the three characteristics by presenting
a progressive pattern that leads from awareness of impermanence
(aniccasaññã) via acknowledging the unsatisfactory nature
of what is impermanent (anicce dukkhasaññã) to appreciating the
selfless nature of what is unsatisfactory."---"Satipatthana", Analayo.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lostitude, Majestic-12 [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 95 guests