4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:45 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:51 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:41 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:38 pm
The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

All above was added to the text , originally only comprises of the four establishment and Mindfulness of breathing .
Can you show us something which shows that this text was added later?
chownah

Hi,

With regard to four establishments or foundations .

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.6/en/bodhi


Kundaliya sutta:

“Kuṇḍaliya, the Tathagata lives for the benefit and fruit of true knowledge and liberation.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation?”

“The seven factors of enlightenment, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?”

“The four establishments of mindfulness, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?”

“The three kinds of good conduct, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------

PS :

You can refer to above sutta ,
The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

Above reflection was not included in the sutta Sn46.6 .

And although one can equate the contemplation of body with Repulsiveness , Elements and
9 stages of corpse decomposition , but , note that
the Prime cause of meditation here of Repulsiveness , elements and corpses is to counter the Lust and Not to develop purely on mindfulness .
Sn46.6 does not list any of the ways to contemplate the body in the body.....none of the reflections are mentioned.....so.....it seems that by using your logic than all of them would be additions....but I don't think that is what you are saying.
chownah

James Tan
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by James Tan » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:28 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:45 pm


Sn46.6 does not list any of the ways to contemplate the body in the body.....none of the reflections are mentioned.....so.....it seems that by using your logic than all of them would be additions....but I don't think that is what you are saying.
chownah
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato

At Sāvatthī. Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, is there one thing that, when developed and cultivated, fulfills four things; and those four things, when developed and cultivated, fulfill seven things; and those seven things, when developed and cultivated, fulfill two things?”

“There is, Ānanda.”

“Sir, what is that one thing?” “Immersion due to mindfulness of breathing is one thing that, when developed and cultivated, fulfills the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. And the four kinds of mindfulness meditation, when developed and cultivated, fulfill the seven awakening factors. And the seven awakening factors, when developed and cultivated, fulfill knowledge and freedom.


==================


One of the point as mentioned above post is cultivating with regard to the Foulness of the body is to counter the Lust and Not the intended reason for developing the Mindfulness but the main theme in the sutta is to develop mindfulness through breathing method to attain jhana and further develop the four type of meditation which leading to accomplish the seven factors of enlightenment .

What I am saying is , the way of ending defilements according to the Buddha teaching is, not to be deviated from the paticasamuppada central teaching which is observing the arisen and cessation in the four foundation meditation (of body feeling mind dhamma) by contemplating through the six sense media not otherwise .

The Question arises when coming to define body.
The traditional understanding is accepting whatever in the sutta prescribed .
Actually , the body here refer to the six sense media not otherwise imo.
Of course my understanding is quite different from the mainstream including defining feeling mind and dhamma .
:reading:

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:29 am

budo wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:32 am
In short, the 5 hindrances weaken wisdom, the jhanas suppress the 5 hindrances, then one attains supernormal knowledge and vision, and destroys the 5 hindrances.
The impression I have from the suttas is that the seven factors of enlightenment progressively "displace" the five hindrances, and that both jhana and insight play a role. I would associate the four tetrads of anapanasati primarily with jhana, and the four frames of satipatthana primarily with insight.

But do the four frames of satipatthana describe a progression in the way that the four tetrads of anapanasati do? I'm not sure they do, since it looks like one can choose which frame of satipatthana to practice at any one time, so effectively they are stand-alone practices.
The fourth frame of satipatthana in MN10 offers a number of different frameworks for practice, again these don't look like a progression but more like a "toolbox" of different methods.
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by budo » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:36 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:29 am
budo wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:32 am
In short, the 5 hindrances weaken wisdom, the jhanas suppress the 5 hindrances, then one attains supernormal knowledge and vision, and destroys the 5 hindrances.
The impression I have from the suttas is that the seven factors of enlightenment progressively "displace" the five hindrances, and that both jhana and insight play a role. I would associate the four tetrads of anapanasati primarily with jhana, and the four frames of satipatthana primarily with insight.

But do the four frames of satipatthana describe a progression in the way that the four tetrads of anapanasati do? I'm not sure they do, since it looks like one can choose which frame of satipatthana to practice at any one time, so effectively they are stand-alone practices.
The fourth frame of satipatthana in MN10 offers a number of different frameworks for practice, again these don't look like a progression but more like a "toolbox" of different methods.
At the top of Anapanasati sutta it says:

""Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination."

Anapanasati is the application of Satipatthana, you cannot enter Jhanas if you are not aware of your body & breath, feelings, thoughts, and the dhamma (5 hindrances).

It clearly is a progression of awareness. There is no "Toolbox" of feelings, either you feel good, bad, or neither good nor bad, or physical feelings or emotional feelings. There is no "tool box" of thoughts, you either have hindered thoughts or you don't. The only different practices are in the Body section of Satipatthana, and in my opinion those refer to off-cushion practices for guarding the senses from the 5 hindrances and preventing the 5 hindrances from arising.

There is no toolbox of Dhamma (fourth satipatthana), the 5 hindrances are in response to the 5 aggregates, in every sutta where the Buddha talks about the drawbacks, he does it in reference to the 5 aggregates. Either you view the 5 aggregates with the perception of the 5 hindrances, or with the perception of the 5 factors guarded by 1.

"There is the case where a monk has abandoned five factors, is endowed with six, guards one, is supported in four"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Lastly, all of the dhamma is just dependent origination formulated and organized into a system of practice.
Last edited by budo on Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

chownah
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:49 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:45 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:51 am
chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:41 am

Can you show us something which shows that this text was added later?
chownah

Hi,

With regard to four establishments or foundations .

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.6/en/bodhi


Kundaliya sutta:

“Kuṇḍaliya, the Tathagata lives for the benefit and fruit of true knowledge and liberation.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation?”

“The seven factors of enlightenment, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?”

“The four establishments of mindfulness, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?”

“The three kinds of good conduct, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------

PS :

You can refer to above sutta ,
The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

Above reflection was not included in the sutta Sn46.6 .

And although one can equate the contemplation of body with Repulsiveness , Elements and
9 stages of corpse decomposition , but , note that
the Prime cause of meditation here of Repulsiveness , elements and corpses is to counter the Lust and Not to develop purely on mindfulness .
Sn46.6 does not list any of the ways to contemplate the body in the body.....none of the reflections are mentioned.....so.....it seems that by using your logic than all of them would be additions....but I don't think that is what you are saying.
chownah
I'll repeat in the hopes that you will respond to what I post as in your reply to this you just changed the subject instead of replying to this:
Sn46.6 does not list any of the ways to contemplate the body in the body.....none of the reflections are mentioned.....so.....it seems that by using your logic than all of them would be additions....but I don't think that is what you are saying.
chownah

James Tan
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by James Tan » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:26 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:49 am


I'll repeat in the hopes that you will respond to what I post as in your reply to this you just changed the subject instead of replying to this:
Sn46.6 does not list any of the ways to contemplate the body in the body.....none of the reflections are mentioned.....so.....it seems that by using your logic than all of them would be additions....but I don't think that is what you are saying.
chownah
Yes, Sn46.6 didn't say out clearly what is body contemplation . But , my meaning is to say my opinion the Reflection on the Repulsiveness etc was not originally the Buddha teaching per four establishments .

======================================

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.6/en/sujato


And Kuṇḍaliya, how is sense restraint developed and cultivated so as to fulfill the three kinds of good conduct? A mendicant sees an agreeable sight with their eye. They don’t desire it or enjoy it, and they don’t give rise to greed. Their mind and body are steady internally, well settled and well freed. But if they see a disagreeable sight they’re not dismayed; their mind isn’t hardened, dejected, or full of ill will. Their mind and body are steady internally, well settled and well freed.

PS :
However ,
Imo , contemplating through the eye, ear, nose etc the 6 sense media in which this is exactly the body contemplation of the four establishments I was saying .


======================================


https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato

When a mendicant is breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ … They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling the physical process.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling the physical process.’ At such a time a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. Why is that? Because the breath is a certain aspect of the body, I say. Therefore, at such a time a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.

=====================================

I tried to show you my understanding , by pointing to the suttas where it doesn't include the Reflection on the Repulsiveness, elements and decomposition stages etc , which I think were added later to some text .
Other than that , by developing the Mindfulness on breathing as the sutta stated will lead to accomplishing of the four establishments , and as shown above , by logic , this breathing mindfulness also is included , and not all of them were addition .
The Question is , imo that reflection on the Repulsiveness , elements and corpses wasn't part of mindfulness training .

That is my simple analysis , if you think otherwise , please discard it. Or analysis is illogical then let it go .
Last edited by James Tan on Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
:reading:

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by Zom » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:03 pm

Regarding the relationship between the four tetrads and the four foundations of mindfulness, the Anapanasati sutta MN 118 itself confirms that each tetrad and its four steps is intended to develop one of the four foundations:
I wouldn't say "intended". Reading the sutta I've got the impression that Buddha actually says that, generally, anapanasati is OKAY for developing satipatthana in general. But without strict relations like "this tetrad is strictly for this satipatthana" etc. As I see it (yes, this is my personal interpretation) Buddha justs says that while looking on the breath one can also notice different things appearing in body and mind (and all those things can be classified (if one needs to!) into 4 satipatthanas). Key phrases in the sutta itself are:

- I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely, in-breathing and out-breathing.
- I say that this is a certain feeling among the feelings, namely, giving close attention to in-breathing and out-breathing.

Without a doubt, breathing is not a body (in the strict sense) and in no way a kind of feeling, let alone "attention" to it 8-) However, 1st and 2nd satipatthanas are "body" and "feeling". What Buddha is trying to say here (as I see) is that while observing breathing in and breathing out one can also notice things which correspond to 1st and 2nd satipatthanas. This is what is meant by these two, rather strange, phrases.

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by paul » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:14 pm

The Anapanasati sutta is structured with an introduction followed by four sections:

-the breath
-the breath applied to developing the foundations of mindfulness
-mindfulness applied to the factors of enlightenment
-clear knowing and release (enlightenment)

Simply reading through these communicates they are intended to function sequentially. In the sutta the breath is only a foundation subject, and once mindfulness has been developed it is discarded, the second and third stages do not mention the breath. Furthermore the introduction lists a number of meditation subjects that monks are pursuing, and it’s clear from the hierarchy that the breath is a beginning subject. Also it is inescapable from this introductory statement that the four are intended to operate as a progression:

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.”—MN 118

The Anapanasati sutta has come to be known as about the breath, but that is a misinterpretation, in fact it outlines a comprehensive path to release where the breath is the beginning, but mindfulness is the central issue. The four tetrads already have the subjects of the foundations included in their formulas.

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:11 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:26 pm
chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:49 am


I'll repeat in the hopes that you will respond to what I post as in your reply to this you just changed the subject instead of replying to this:
Sn46.6 does not list any of the ways to contemplate the body in the body.....none of the reflections are mentioned.....so.....it seems that by using your logic than all of them would be additions....but I don't think that is what you are saying.
chownah
Yes, Sn46.6 didn't say out clearly what is body contemplation . But , my meaning is to say my opinion the Reflection on the Repulsiveness etc was not originally the Buddha teaching per four establishments .
Thank you for the reply. I think then that it is your idea that The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body, The Reflection on the Material Elements, and The Nine Cemetery Contemplations were added later.

I can see why you think this because I think that these three which you mention do seem to be out of place and not in keeping with the rest of the sutta....and....I agree that the repulsive ness and the cemetery contemplations seem to be meant for another purpose entirely......but.....I personally would not say that just because I see it this way means that they were added on later nor would I say based on just because I see it this way means that they are worthless with respect to mindfulness of the body contemplation. Perhaps some people do find that when properly attended to that these themes lead them in the right direction with respect to mindfulness with respect to the body.

Thanks for your reply,
chownah

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by pegembara » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:17 am

(The Blessed One said:) “And how is mindfulness immersed in the body developed, how is it pursued, so as to be of great fruit & great benefit?

“There is the case where a monk—having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building—sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and establishing mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.1

“And further, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: ‘In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.’

“And further, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground—one day, two days, three days dead—bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, ‘This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate’…

“In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Māra gains entry, Māra gains a foothold.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN119.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by paul » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:19 am

paul wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:14 pm
the second and third stages do not mention the breath.
Correction:
the third and fourth stages

James Tan
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by James Tan » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:48 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:11 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:26 pm
chownah wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:49 am


I'll repeat in the hopes that you will respond to what I post as in your reply to this you just changed the subject instead of replying to this:
Sn46.6 does not list any of the ways to contemplate the body in the body.....none of the reflections are mentioned.....so.....it seems that by using your logic than all of them would be additions....but I don't think that is what you are saying.
chownah
Yes, Sn46.6 didn't say out clearly what is body contemplation . But , my meaning is to say my opinion the Reflection on the Repulsiveness etc was not originally the Buddha teaching per four establishments .
Thank you for the reply. I think then that it is your idea that The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body, The Reflection on the Material Elements, and The Nine Cemetery Contemplations were added later.

I can see why you think this because I think that these three which you mention do seem to be out of place and not in keeping with the rest of the sutta....and....I agree that the repulsive ness and the cemetery contemplations seem to be meant for another purpose entirely......but.....I personally would not say that just because I see it this way means that they were added on later nor would I say based on just because I see it this way means that they are worthless with respect to mindfulness of the body contemplation. Perhaps some people do find that when properly attended to that these themes lead them in the right direction with respect to mindfulness with respect to the body.

Thanks for your reply,
chownah
As said earlier this Repulsiveness meditation etc was meant for other reason but to clarify my post never indicated Foulness contemplation is a Worthless practice .
Just that one may be mistaken for what the Buddha taught and out of the context because the four foundation meditation originally should be in correlation to the essence of Buddha teaching which is PS where it is associated to the four nutriments also .

PS.
I am not a scholar or anything but I knew that there is a monk whom done the research on Nikaya / Agama comparison and resonate with my guessing .
:reading:

chownah
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:44 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:48 am
As said earlier this Repulsiveness meditation etc was meant for other reason but to clarify my post never indicated Foulness contemplation is a Worthless practice .
Just that one may be mistaken for what the Buddha taught and out of the context because the four foundation meditation originally should be in correlation to the essence of Buddha teaching which is PS where it is associated to the four nutriments also .

PS.
I am not a scholar or anything but I knew that there is a monk whom done the research on Nikaya / Agama comparison and resonate with my guessing .
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the sutta which pegembara brought. It seems to be saying that one reason for the charnal grounds meditation is to develop mindfulness of the body. It seems that for some reason you want to either deny this or to marginalize this. This sutta seems to be putting that use in the spotlight.
chownah
(The Blessed One said:) “And how is mindfulness immersed in the body developed, how is it pursued, so as to be of great fruit & great benefit?

“There is the case where a monk—having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building—sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and establishing mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.1

“And further, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: ‘In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.’

“And further, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground—one day, two days, three days dead—bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, ‘This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate’…

“In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Māra gains entry, Māra gains a foothold.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN119.html

James Tan
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:38 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:44 am

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the sutta which pegembara brought. It seems to be saying that one reason for the charnal grounds meditation is to develop mindfulness of the body. It seems that for some reason you want to either deny this or to marginalize this. This sutta seems to be putting that use in the spotlight.
chownah

Greetings ,

https://suttacentral.net/mn119/en/horner



Monks, it is as if there were a double mouthed provision bag that was full of various kinds of grain such as hill-paddy, paddy, kidney beans, peas, sesamum, rice; and a keen-eyed man, pouring them out, might reflect: ‘That’s hill-paddy, that’s paddy, that’s kidney beans, that’s peas, that’s sesamum, that’s rice.’ Even so, monks, does a monk reflect precisely on this body itself, encased as it is in skin and full of various impurities, from the soles of the feet up and from the crown of the head down, that: ‘There is connected with this body hair of the head … urine.’ While he is thus diligent, ardent, self-resolute … Thus too, monks, does a monk develop mindfulness of body.

And again, monks, a monk reflects on this body itself according to how it is placed or disposed in respect of the elements, thinking: ‘In this body there is the element of extension … of cohesion … of radiation … of motion.’ Monks, it is as if a skilled cattle-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow, might sit at the crossroads displaying its carcase. Even so, monks, does a monk reflect on this body itself according to how it is placed or disposed in respect of the elements, thinking: ‘In this body there is the element of extension … of cohesion … of radiation … of motion.’ While he is thus diligent, ardent, self-resolute … Thus too, monks, does a monk develop mindfulness of body.

And again, monks, it is as if a monk might see, thrown aside in a cemetery a body that had been dead for one day or for two days or for three days, swollen, discoloured, decomposing; so he focuses on this body itself, thinking: ‘This body too is of a similar nature, a similar constitution, it has not got past that (state of things).’ While he is thus diligent, ardent, self-resolute … Thus too, monks, does a monk develop mindfulness of body.

====================================


Chownah ,

Do you think this meditation is to develop thinking the body as the state of being filth / foul ? Or the theme of the sutta is really to develop mindfulness itself ?

Thanks .
:reading:

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:00 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:38 am
Chownah ,

Do you think this meditation is to develop thinking the body as the state of being filth / foul ? Or the theme of the sutta is really to develop mindfulness itself ?

Thanks .
I think that a broad knowledge of the suttas shows that it can be used for both.
chownah

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