4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

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Idappaccayata
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4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by Idappaccayata » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm

Given the relationship between the four foundations of mindfulness and mindfulness of breathing, do each one of the four foundations correlate to one of the tetrads?

Could it also be said that each of the four tetrads of anapanasati correlate to one each of the four jhana? It seems that they could be loosely connected, but that first jhana is only fully described after the second tetrad.

Or, could it be that all four tetrads are descriptive of working with any level of samadhi, regardless of how deep?
The furniture may be exquisite,
And the bars of solid gold,
But once the bird realizes that the cage is a cage,
It finds within that cage
No joy

- Ajahn Jayasaro

paul
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by paul » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:36 pm

Regarding the relationship between the four tetrads and the four foundations of mindfulness, the Anapanasati sutta MN 118 itself confirms that each tetrad and its four steps is intended to develop one of the four foundations:

“And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed and pursued so as to bring the four establishings of mindfulness to their culmination ?”

SarathW
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by SarathW » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:07 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by SarathW » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:12 pm

the Anapanasati sutta MN 118 itself confirms that each tetrad and its four steps is intended to develop one of the four foundations:
Good point Paul. It is worthwhile discussion this point in detail.
Does this mean Kayanupassana (body contemplation) only is sufficed for the release?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:25 am

What's a tetrad?
chownah

pegembara
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by pegembara » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:55 am

mindfulness of the body(kaya);
mindfulness of feelings(vedanā)
mindfulness of mind or consciousness (citta)
mindfulness of dhammās

I. THE CONTEMPLATION OF THE BODY
1. Mindfulness of Breathing
2. The Postures of the Body
3. Mindfulness with Clear Comprehension
4. The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
5. The Reflection on the Material Elements
6. The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el019.html

Kayaupassana leads to the realisation that the body isn't self nor does it belong to self. It isn't sufficient for liberation.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:58 am

What's a tetrad?
Read the link above in my post.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:24 am

Idappaccayata wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm
Given the relationship between the four foundations of mindfulness and mindfulness of breathing, do each one of the four foundations correlate to one of the tetrads?
Yes, there appears to be a correlation between the four tetrads and the four foundations, though with the four tetrads the breath provides continuity as the object of concentration.
Idappaccayata wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm
Could it also be said that each of the four tetrads of anapanasati correlate to one each of the four jhana? It seems that they could be loosely connected, but that first jhana is only fully described after the second tetrad.
There are different interpretations of the four tetrads. A more traditional view would be that the first three tetrads are concerned with developing jhana, while the fourth is concerned with the resulting insight. So effectively it's a progression from samadhi to panna.
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budo
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by budo » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 am

Idappaccayata wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:21 pm
Given the relationship between the four foundations of mindfulness and mindfulness of breathing, do each one of the four foundations correlate to one of the tetrads?

Could it also be said that each of the four tetrads of anapanasati correlate to one each of the four jhana? It seems that they could be loosely connected, but that first jhana is only fully described after the second tetrad.

Or, could it be that all four tetrads are descriptive of working with any level of samadhi, regardless of how deep?
Yes it is all connected. The fourth satipatthana (the dhamma, mind qualities) which aligns with the fourth tetrad of Anapanasati happens in 4th jhana (The hindrances are suppressed pre first jhana, but are destroyed in 4th jhana). Clear knowing of impermanence happens in third jhana as the quality Sati-Sampajanna heightens. Notice in the gradual training vipassana happens at the end of the jhanas, not before, it is a supernormal power.


See Ajahn Sona's explanation of vipassana vs samadhi here

James Tan
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by James Tan » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:38 pm

The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

All above was added to the text , originally only comprises of the four establishment and Mindfulness of breathing .
:reading:

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:41 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:38 pm
The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

All above was added to the text , originally only comprises of the four establishment and Mindfulness of breathing .
Can you show us something which shows that this text was added later?
chownah

James Tan
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by James Tan » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:51 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:41 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:38 pm
The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

All above was added to the text , originally only comprises of the four establishment and Mindfulness of breathing .
Can you show us something which shows that this text was added later?
chownah

Hi,

With regard to four establishments or foundations .

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.6/en/bodhi


Kundaliya sutta:

“Kuṇḍaliya, the Tathagata lives for the benefit and fruit of true knowledge and liberation.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation?”

“The seven factors of enlightenment, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil true knowledge and liberation.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment?”

“The four establishments of mindfulness, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven factors of enlightenment.”

“But, Master Gotama, what things, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness?”

“The three kinds of good conduct, Kuṇḍaliya, when developed and cultivated, fulfil the four establishments of mindfulness.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------

PS :

You can refer to above sutta ,
The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

Above reflection was not included in the sutta Sn46.6 .

And although one can equate the contemplation of body with Repulsiveness , Elements and
9 stages of corpse decomposition , but , note that
the Prime cause of meditation here of Repulsiveness , elements and corpses is to counter the Lust and Not to develop purely on mindfulness .
:reading:

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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:11 am

budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 am
The fourth satipatthana (the dhamma, mind qualities) which aligns with the fourth tetrad of Anapanasati happens in 4th jhana (The hindrances are suppressed pre first jhana, but are destroyed in 4th jhana).
But the fourth frame of satipatthana includes noticing when the hindrances are present, so how does this align with the 4th jhana where the hindrances are apparently destroyed?
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 am
1. Clear knowing of impermanence happens in third jhana as the quality Sati-Sampajanna heightens.
2. Notice in the gradual training vipassana happens at the end of the jhanas, not before, it is a supernormal power.
Do you have any sutta support for statement 1?

Statements 1 and 2 appear to be contradictory - could you elaborate?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:14 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:51 am
You can refer to above sutta ,
The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
The Reflection on the Material Elements
The Nine Cemetery Contemplations

Above reflection was not included in the sutta Sn46.6 .
This only demonstrates that MN10 is more comprehensive than SN 46.6. :shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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budo
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Re: 4 Tetrads, 4 Foundations, 4 Jhanas?

Post by budo » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:32 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:11 am
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 am
The fourth satipatthana (the dhamma, mind qualities) which aligns with the fourth tetrad of Anapanasati happens in 4th jhana (The hindrances are suppressed pre first jhana, but are destroyed in 4th jhana).
But the fourth frame of satipatthana includes noticing when the hindrances are present, so how does this align with the 4th jhana where the hindrances are apparently destroyed?
budo wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 am
1. Clear knowing of impermanence happens in third jhana as the quality Sati-Sampajanna heightens.
2. Notice in the gradual training vipassana happens at the end of the jhanas, not before, it is a supernormal power.
Do you have any sutta support for statement 1?

Statements 1 and 2 appear to be contradictory - could you elaborate?
Satipathana begins with gross hindrances and ends with the destruction of the hindrances.

It begins with: "putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.", or another translation by Sujato "aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world". This is how the satipathana sutta starts, these are signs of the gross hindrances.

Before one enters Jhana then it's "secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states", the 5 hindrances are unwholesome states.

In AN 10.95 "But the Realized One knows that whoever’s released from the world—in the past, future, or present—all have given up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom."

So the whole process is the process of weakening the hindrances from gross to subtle. As the hindrances weakens, the better you can see reality, when the hindrances are very weak then you attain vipassana and destroy them. There's a sutta where the Buddha tells a monk that he is doing wrong ana-pana because his ana-pana doesn't include awareness of the 5 hindrances.

By third Jhana the hindrances are very weak.You asked for sutta support, it's in the anupada sutta where Sampajanna is brought up, in third jhana if you read the pali sampajanna appears.

"And he distinguished the phenomena in the third absorption one by one: bliss and mindfulness and awareness and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention. "

"Ye ca tatiye jhāne dhammā—sukhañca sati ca sampajaññañca cittekaggatā ca, phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro—"

If you look at any of the gradual process suttas, like DN2 for example or even the chinese agamas, it's always after Knowledge and vision (Vipassanāñāṇa) which comes after fourth jhana:

"When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward knowledge of the ending of defilements.

"They truly understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. "

"They truly understand: ‘These are defilements’ … ‘This is the origin of defilements’ … ‘This is the cessation of defilements’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of defilements’. "

"Knowing and seeing like this, their mind is freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. "

"They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

"Suppose that in a mountain glen there was a lake that was transparent, clear, and unclouded. A person with good eyesight standing on the bank would see the mussel shells, gravel and pebbles, and schools of fish swimming about or staying still. They’d think: ‘This lake is transparent, clear, and unclouded. And here are the mussel shells, gravel and pebbles, and schools of fish swimming about or staying still.’ "

"In the same way, when their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, spotless, rid of taints, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward knowledge of the ending of defilements. "

In short, the 5 hindrances weaken wisdom, the jhanas suppress the 5 hindrances, then one attains supernormal knowledge and vision, and destroys the 5 hindrances.

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