Captivates the Mind of a Man

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binocular
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by binocular »

Pondera wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:28 am
Another man may captivate the mind of a man - a beast - a child - a dead person. All of that I grant you. But the Buddha says he does not know of a form that captivates the mind of a man as that of a woman. So, I give credence to every other persuasion and fetish - but the form of a woman captivates the mind of a man indeed - above all else.
But not just any woman/any man. It's not the case that the form of just any woman captivates the mind of just any man; or that the form of just any man captivates the mind of just any woman. Not because either of them would be homosexual, but because they are very selective about whom they like/dislike.

Given this practical objection, it appears the sutta may be talking in some particular generalized manner.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by salayatananirodha »

What ever 'thing' we encounter in Dhamma we shouldn't let ourselves re-fit the Dhamma to our mind's inclining, but instead we should re-fit our minds. If gay people are another gender because of their sexual inclination, or some other interpretation we can muster, it doesn't change the sutta. And the Buddha could have been speaking some kind of generally, broadly, not including everyone, but this I don't know. We need better explanations than not taking these words as they are, plainly, literally.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Nicolas
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by Nicolas »

The sutta clearly does not match the case of a homosexual man or woman (based off of the world and others’ experience, or one’s own if one is not heterosexual). This is not my mind’s inclining but it’s based off of empirical observation, and common sense. Therefore we must infer that the Buddha is speaking in general terms, implicitly speaking of the overwhelming majority that is heterosexual men and women (95%?).

The Buddha does sometimes speak in “general” terms, implicitly not referring to exceptions. “All men fear death”, for instance, does not refer to arahants, but it’s not worth mentioning (unless one wants to highlight the fruits of arahantship). To use the same example in the original scenario, the sutta doesn’t apply to people who have gone beyond sensual desire. This means it implicitly refers to those still with sensual desire. Interpreting it as applying to 100% everyone would imply that even arahants have sensual desire. That would be silly. To claim that this sutta must indicate that the opposite gender is more enticing than the same gender for a homosexual is equally silly.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:16 am
A couple of questions arise from this sutta excerpt
1. Rūpādivaggo (AN 1.1-10)
Starting with form
I heard thus,
At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi.
The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus and said:

1. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The form of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the first.

2. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The sound of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the second.

3. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The smell of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man This is the third.

4. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The taste of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fourth.

5. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The touch of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fifth.
And vice versa for a woman - according to the sutta.

1. How would the LGBTQ community feel about this excerpt? Ie. are the assertions here universally true?

2. What do these assertions teach us about the asavas and sense desire from the Buddha’s perspective? Ie. is the core of the sense desire doctrine aimed at relations between men and women?

Thank you.
in case of lgbtq its same gender. simple as that. those days no lgbtq or very less. but body is same flesh and blood so its lust for stimulation of body. these days people stumilate using machines or vibrators which is more pleasent than human skin touch. (i have no personal exp in this so im just saying what is spoken elsewhere)

But for me women are distraction as im man. if someone is gay they can avoid man but be with women if lust dont arise. but if true dhamma means one enter jhana and avoid mara of all sort.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Pondera
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:51 am
Pondera wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:16 am
A couple of questions arise from this sutta excerpt
1. Rūpādivaggo (AN 1.1-10)
Starting with form
I heard thus,
At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi.
The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus and said:

1. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The form of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the first.

2. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The sound of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the second.

3. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The smell of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man This is the third.

4. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The taste of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fourth.

5. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The touch of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fifth.
And vice versa for a woman - according to the sutta.

1. How would the LGBTQ community feel about this excerpt? Ie. are the assertions here universally true?

2. What do these assertions teach us about the asavas and sense desire from the Buddha’s perspective? Ie. is the core of the sense desire doctrine aimed at relations between men and women?

Thank you.
in case of lgbtq its same gender. simple as that.
Bi would be both genders. Trans could be a man or a woman who identifies as a woman or a man but is also gay (or bi, or straight).

I love your word salads, CL. But think before you prepare them.
those days no lgbtq or very less.
Well, I think the general consensus is that gender preference and identity is at least part genetic and our genetics haven’t changed much in 40,000 years.

So if you mean that there were much less lgbtq 2500 years ago, in the same sense that there were much less people in general, then - sure.

But I don’t think that’s what you mean; and if you mean what I think you mean, then you’re simply ignorant and you need to take a class in stats.
but body is same flesh and blood so its lust for stimulation of body. these days people stumilate using machines or vibrators which is more pleasent than human skin touch. (i have no personal exp in this so im just saying what is spoken elsewhere)
They use plastic dolls too. Much more pleasant than a real partner. Mmm hmm 🤔 Sounds like someone here might be a virgin folks.
But for me women are distraction as im man.
Do you mean “as I am straight”. What does being a man have to do with sexual preference? You seem to be the expert. Do tell. 🧐
if someone is gay they can avoid man but be with women if lust dont arise. but if true dhamma means one enter jhana and avoid mara of all sort.
Do you live in a cave? Your advice to gay men is to sleep with women so that lust doesn’t arise? Why not sleep with a sheep or a goat? Good advice.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:33 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:51 am
Pondera wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:16 am
A couple of questions arise from this sutta excerpt

And vice versa for a woman - according to the sutta.

1. How would the LGBTQ community feel about this excerpt? Ie. are the assertions here universally true?

2. What do these assertions teach us about the asavas and sense desire from the Buddha’s perspective? Ie. is the core of the sense desire doctrine aimed at relations between men and women?

Thank you.
in case of lgbtq its same gender. simple as that.
Bi would be both genders. Trans could be a man or a woman who identifies as a woman or a man but is also gay (or bi, or straight).

I love your word salads, CL. But think before you prepare them.
those days no lgbtq or very less.
Well, I think the general consensus is that gender preference and identity is at least part genetic and our genetics haven’t changed much in 40,000 years.

So if you mean that there were much less lgbtq 2500 years ago, in the same sense that there were much less people in general, then - sure.

But I don’t think that’s what you mean; and if you mean what I think you mean, then you’re simply ignorant and you need to take a class in stats.
but body is same flesh and blood so its lust for stimulation of body. these days people stumilate using machines or vibrators which is more pleasent than human skin touch. (i have no personal exp in this so im just saying what is spoken elsewhere)
They use plastic dolls too. Much more pleasant than a real partner. Mmm hmm 🤔 Sounds like someone here might be a virgin folks.
But for me women are distraction as im man.
Do you mean “as I am straight”. What does being a man have to do with sexual preference? You seem to be the expert. Do tell. 🧐
if someone is gay they can avoid man but be with women if lust dont arise. but if true dhamma means one enter jhana and avoid mara of all sort.
Do you live in a cave? Your advice to gay men is to sleep with women so that lust doesn’t arise? Why not sleep with a sheep or a goat? Good advice.
yes, i am virgin by body not by mind. gay man entering monestry with other men will arise lust for him. if he is gay he can stay in womens quaters so lust wont arise in him. wats wrong?
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Pondera
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:26 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:33 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:51 am


in case of lgbtq its same gender. simple as that.
Bi would be both genders. Trans could be a man or a woman who identifies as a woman or a man but is also gay (or bi, or straight).

I love your word salads, CL. But think before you prepare them.
those days no lgbtq or very less.
Well, I think the general consensus is that gender preference and identity is at least part genetic and our genetics haven’t changed much in 40,000 years.

So if you mean that there were much less lgbtq 2500 years ago, in the same sense that there were much less people in general, then - sure.

But I don’t think that’s what you mean; and if you mean what I think you mean, then you’re simply ignorant and you need to take a class in stats.
but body is same flesh and blood so its lust for stimulation of body. these days people stumilate using machines or vibrators which is more pleasent than human skin touch. (i have no personal exp in this so im just saying what is spoken elsewhere)
They use plastic dolls too. Much more pleasant than a real partner. Mmm hmm 🤔 Sounds like someone here might be a virgin folks.
But for me women are distraction as im man.
Do you mean “as I am straight”. What does being a man have to do with sexual preference? You seem to be the expert. Do tell. 🧐
if someone is gay they can avoid man but be with women if lust dont arise. but if true dhamma means one enter jhana and avoid mara of all sort.
Do you live in a cave? Your advice to gay men is to sleep with women so that lust doesn’t arise? Why not sleep with a sheep or a goat? Good advice.
yes, i am virgin by body not by mind. gay man entering monestry with other men will arise lust for him. if he is gay he can stay in womens quaters so lust wont arise in him. wats wrong?
Aww. That’s cute. You’re a virgin!

What does that mean? “Not by mind”?

Nothing wrong with a gay monk living with the nuns; except I think it’s strictly against the rules. Vinaya is not my strong suit. You could be right.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:34 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:26 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:33 am


Bi would be both genders. Trans could be a man or a woman who identifies as a woman or a man but is also gay (or bi, or straight).

I love your word salads, CL. But think before you prepare them.




Well, I think the general consensus is that gender preference and identity is at least part genetic and our genetics haven’t changed much in 40,000 years.

So if you mean that there were much less lgbtq 2500 years ago, in the same sense that there were much less people in general, then - sure.

But I don’t think that’s what you mean; and if you mean what I think you mean, then you’re simply ignorant and you need to take a class in stats.



They use plastic dolls too. Much more pleasant than a real partner. Mmm hmm 🤔 Sounds like someone here might be a virgin folks.



Do you mean “as I am straight”. What does being a man have to do with sexual preference? You seem to be the expert. Do tell. 🧐



Do you live in a cave? Your advice to gay men is to sleep with women so that lust doesn’t arise? Why not sleep with a sheep or a goat? Good advice.
yes, i am virgin by body not by mind. gay man entering monestry with other men will arise lust for him. if he is gay he can stay in womens quaters so lust wont arise in him. wats wrong?
Aww. That’s cute. You’re a virgin!

What does that mean? “Not by mind”?

Nothing wrong with a gay monk living with the nuns; except I think it’s strictly against the rules. Vinaya is not my strong suit. You could be right.
By body im virgin .i had no intercorse. By mind i think of having x with fantasy girls so i hav x in daydream but it dont reflext real.world x
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Pondera
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:46 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:34 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:26 am


yes, i am virgin by body not by mind. gay man entering monestry with other men will arise lust for him. if he is gay he can stay in womens quaters so lust wont arise in him. wats wrong?
Aww. That’s cute. You’re a virgin!

What does that mean? “Not by mind”?

Nothing wrong with a gay monk living with the nuns; except I think it’s strictly against the rules. Vinaya is not my strong suit. You could be right.
By body im virgin .i had no intercorse. By mind i think of having x with fantasy girls so i hav x in daydream but it dont reflext real.world x
How old are you?

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confusedlayman
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:18 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:46 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:34 am


Aww. That’s cute. You’re a virgin!

What does that mean? “Not by mind”?

Nothing wrong with a gay monk living with the nuns; except I think it’s strictly against the rules. Vinaya is not my strong suit. You could be right.
By body im virgin .i had no intercorse. By mind i think of having x with fantasy girls so i hav x in daydream but it dont reflext real.world x
How old are you?
Less than 25
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Captivates the Mind of a Man

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:16 am
A couple of questions arise from this sutta excerpt
1. Rūpādivaggo (AN 1.1-10)
Starting with form
I heard thus,
At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi.
The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus and said:

1. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The form of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the first.

2. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The sound of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the second.

3. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The smell of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man This is the third.

4. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The taste of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fourth.

5. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of man as that of woman.
The touch of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fifth.
And vice versa for a woman - according to the sutta.

1. How would the LGBTQ community feel about this excerpt? Ie. are the assertions here universally true?

2. What do these assertions teach us about the asavas and sense desire from the Buddha’s perspective? Ie. is the core of the sense desire doctrine aimed at relations between men and women?

Thank you.

As a gay man I just adapt it. His audience would have been majority straight males, and back then they didn’t really have a concept of homosexual like we do. If by universally true you mean do they also apply to gay men then no, they don’t. Women don’t captivate my mind like that.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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