Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

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SarathW
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Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:03 am

Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?
Yamaka Sutta is about the nature of death and rebirth of an Arahant.
The question is whether we can apply the same to a r.un of the mill person. (non-arahant)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:18 am

That could be an interesting question. Take, for example:
What do you think, Reverend Yamaka? Do you regard the Realized One as form?” “No, reverend.” “Do you regard the Realized One as feeling … perception … choices … consciousness?” “No, reverend.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato#sc8
What if you applied that to me?
What do you think, Friend Sarath? Do you regard Friend Mike as form?” ... ???
:thinking:
Mike

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:41 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:03 am
Yamaka Sutta is about the nature of death... of an Arahant.
Are you sure it is about the "death" of an Arahant? :shrug:

SarathW
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:41 am

on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.
DD how do you translate this from Pali?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:51 am

That could be an interesting question.
Agree.
What if I substitute this as follows. Will the rest of the sutta still valid>
Original:
"As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more (mental) effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."

My version:
"As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with (mental) effluents, on the break-up of the body, is
not annihilated, perishes, & does exist after death (rebirth?)."
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:41 am
SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:03 am
Yamaka Sutta is about the nature of death... of an Arahant.
Are you sure it is about the "death" of an Arahant? :shrug:
“As I understand the Buddha’s teaching, a mendicant who has ended the defilements is annihilated and destroyed when their body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death.”
“tathāhaṃ bhagavatā dhammaṃ desitaṃ ājānāmi, yathā khīṇāsavo bhikkhu kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṃ maraṇā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato#1
:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:59 am

What is the difference between Parinibbana and Marana of an Arahant?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:26 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:59 am
“As I understand the Buddha’s teaching, a mendicant who has ended the defilements is annihilated and destroyed when their body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death.”
“tathāhaṃ bhagavatā dhammaṃ desitaṃ ājānāmi, yathā khīṇāsavo bhikkhu kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṃ maraṇā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato#1
Yes. But was the statement made by a mind/person with right view? :shrug: It appears the statement was made by Yamaka, who had wrong view.
SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:03 am
Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?
Imo, this is an excellent question.

SarathW
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:47 am

Yes. But was the statement made by a mind/person with right view?
Good point.
But can a person with right view believe in death or rebirth (of Putujana)?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:52 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:47 am
But can a person with right view believe in death or rebirth (of Putujana)?
Probably. It seems all puthujjana take "birth" ("jati"), die ("marana") and are "re-born" because the aggregates of a puthujjana are mixed with self-view.
mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:18 am
What if you applied that to me?
What do you think, Friend Sarath? Do you regard Friend Mike as form?” ... ???
If Mike identifies with form then Mike probably is form (to Mike); like the Mike below:
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by Zom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:30 am

Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?
Yamaka Sutta is about the nature of death and rebirth of an Arahant.
The question is whether we can apply the same to a r.un of the mill person. (non-arahant)
Yamaka sutta is NOT about death and rebirth of an arahant. It is about deluded person with wrong self-views concerning enlightened beings.

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cappuccino
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:27 pm

"Don't say that, friend Yamaka. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'

But even though Ven. Yamaka was thus rebuked by those monks, he — from stubbornness & attachment — maintained his adherence to that evil supposition: 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'

When those monks could not pry Ven. Yamaka loose from his evil supposition, they got up from their seats and went to Ven. Sariputta.
Yamaka Sutta
“Life is anxiety”

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Nicolas
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by Nicolas » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:09 pm

The sutta points out that Yamaka's view is wrong because there is no such thing as an arahant "entity" to be annihilated and destroyed, it is simply the aggregates (which are anicca & dukkha) which cease and end. There is no arahant "entity" connected to the aggregates or disconnected to the aggregates; there is no such "entity" anywhere, so there is no arahant "entity" to be annihilated or destroyed at the break-up of the body.

The puthujjana imagines a "self", an "entity" connected to the aggregates, and through this ignorance, identification, and craving, there is picking up of another configuration of the aggregates after the break-up of the body, and self-perpetuation of the ignorance, identification, and craving. The sutta applies to the puthujjana in the sense that there is ultimately no "entity" that dies, but also doesn't apply in the sense that there is perpetuation of ignorance, identification, and craving; perpetuation of the illusion of identity -- and so still perpetuation of dukkha; perpetuation. It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy (pun intended).

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cappuccino
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:41 pm

the view "I have no self" is just as much a doctrine of self as the view "I have a self"

Alagaddupama Sutta
“Life is anxiety”

SarathW
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Re: Can we apply Yamaka Sutta to Puthujana?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:55 pm

From the Yamaka Sutta:
==="Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."=========

Isn't this similar to asking a question?

===="Do you regard Mike as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."===
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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