The sequence of the four noble truths

[Bundokji]

I came across the doctor's analogy before, and it sounds like a good one, but was it mentioned by the Buddha himself? Does anyone know the historical background of this analogy?...

Two possibilities:
https://suttacentral.net/an3.22/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/an10.108/en/sujato

Edit: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... icine.html

Thanks for the reference John

[dhamma012]

I'm a bit late to the party here, but thought I'd add a few observations, in case anyone is interested.

There are a few scholars who've also remarked that the ordering of the four noble truths is odd. They wonder how the Buddha could get to his destination (i.e. the end of dukkha) if he didn't already know the path. A dutch professor named Bronkhorst who studied Buddhism, had this to say in one of his books.

Recognition of the Four Noble Truths culminates in knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of suffering. This is useful knowledge for someone who is about to enter upon this path, but it is long overdue for someone at the end of the road. Knowledge of the path must and does precede a person commencing upon it.This also applies to the Buddha himself.

Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India - Johannes Bronkhorst

As far as I can see, this seems to be the common opinion in scholarly circles. Still, a close look at this opinion shows that it doesn't make sense.

The Buddha likened himself to an explorer in one of his suttas:

Suppose a person was walking through a forest. They’d see an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by humans in the past. Following it along, they’d see an ancient city, an ancient capital, inhabited by humans in the past. It was lovely, complete with parks, groves, lotus ponds, and embankments. Then that person would inform a king or their minister: ‘Please sir, you should know this. While walking through a forest I saw an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by humans in the past. Following it along I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital, inhabited by humans in the past. It was lovely, complete with parks, groves, lotus ponds, and embankments. Sir, you should rebuild that city!’ Then that king or their minister would have that city rebuilt. And after some time that city was successful and prosperous and full of people, attained to growth and expansion. In the same way, I saw an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by fully awakened Buddhas in the past.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/suj ... ript=latin

The thing about explorers is that while they would have a hypothesis about what path to take, they don't know what the correct path is before they reach a destination. Rather, they only know that the path they took was the correct path in retrospect, after they reach the destination and they recognize the destination for what it is.

Take Abel Tasman and his discovery of New Zealand. He didn't know that he had taken the path to New Zealand until he saw it and realized it was a new land. It was only a couple of years later that his discoveries were included in maps that showed the path.

In Colombus's case, he didn't even realize that he was in America the first time he discovered it because he thought he was in India. It was only after it was confirmed that the features of the land and people didn't resemble India, but a new land, did people say that he had found the path to America. So in this situation, not only did he have to get to America, people had to recognize it for what it was before the path to America was confirmed as 'discovered'.

In light of this I would say that the Buddha had a hunch as to what path he should follow, based on his knowledge of the paths that he tried but had not worked. But he could only know that the path he followed was the right one after he had gained Awakening and retrospectively reviewed the path he took to get there.

Another reason that you might think that the Buddha knew the path before he bacame awakened, is that he says in M36 that he realized that the path to enlightenment is through the first jhana. This is what Bronkhorst, the scholar mentioned above, had to say:

In the passage which we studied above (§ 1.5, MN I. 246-47) we were told that the Bodhisattva remembered how once in his youth, he reached the First Dhyåna and wondered if this could be the road towards enlightenment. The text then continues: “following this memory I had this knowledge: ‘This is really the road towards enlightenment’.” In other words, also the Bodhisattva knew the path he was to traverse, and knowledge of the Four Noble Truths could not thereafter bring him anything new.

Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India - Johannes Bronkhorst

The issue here is that the Buddha's statement of the realization of the path is taken out of context. Below is a fuller passage:

“I considered: ‘I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. Could that be the path to enlightenment?’ Then, following on that memory, came the realisation: ‘That is indeed the path to enlightenment.’

“I thought: ‘Why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states?’ I thought: ‘I am not afraid of that pleasure since it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/bodhi? ... ight=false

If you take the first paragraph by itself, you might think that the Buddha knew the path to awakening before he gained awakening. But the second paragraph shows that his 'realization' was a hunch or hypothesis, rather than a fact that he had proven.

After his 'realization', he continues to evaluate the merits of cultivating the jhanas by asking himself "why must I be afraid of the pleasures [of jhana]'...". If he knew for certain that jhana would lead to awakening, further evaluation would be unnecessary. His continued evaluation of the merits of jhana only makes sense if he was trying to determine whether or not he should follow his hunch and, if he did follow his hunch, where he might get lost.

So the evidence in the suttas indicate that the Buddha discovered and refined the factors of the eightfold path over time, in his search for awakening. He gained awakening upon perfecting the path. But while the action of perfecting the path might precede his awakening, the knowledge that he had taken the right path and perfected it could only arise after he had gained awakening. I.e. For an explorer, the knowledge that the path is correct only arises once the destination has been reached and recognized.

[Coëmgenu]

The linear progression of the four truths is a staple of all Buddhisms. Buddhisms that believe in the "five paths" have penetration into the noble truths as the third path, the darśanamārga or "path of seeing." In the case of the Sarvāstivādins, this "path of seeing" consisted of 16 dharmas spaced irregularly. It could be days, "moments," weeks, months, years, a lifetime, between these realizations, but they are always 16 and are always sequential. Four noble truths in four aspects each.

The Theravādin sect has four noble truths in three aspects each (which matches their suttas, namely the Sutta of the Turning of the Dharma-Wheel) and progress along the path to Bodhi is much more rapid in the quasi-subitist Theravādin reckoning than it is in the gradualist Sarvāstivādin reckoning, but the sequence is still important.

All Buddhist sects have to reckon with the eccentric placement of the "path to cessation" after "cessation itself."

[dhamma012]

An additional comment on wisdom.

Various sources that I have explored indicate that the eightfold path is not one to be followed linearly. Instead, you develop one of the factors a little, which lets you develop another one a little and so on. This carries on in a circular fashion until all factors are fully developed and you gain awakening.

As outlined in the comment above, the Buddha tested out several hypotheses in his quest for awakening. Each of these hypotheses, at the time they were developed, would have been his closest approximation to right view. He then tested these hypotheses and discarded or refined them until he had a better approximation of right view. The testing, discarding and refining process of right view would invariably require him to do the same with the other factors of the path. Only upon perfecting the path would right view culminate in the knowledge of the four noble truths.

The reason that right view is mentioned first then is that, to take a step in the right direction you have to have some idea of what that direction might be. Having explored that direction you can later know whether it was right or not.

The prerequisite to any search is a view or hypothesis on what the goal might look like and what the search might entail. But you can know for yourself that the view is correct only in retrospect once you have reached the goal.

Since the Buddha reached the goal before us, he was able to provide an accurate description of right view in the form of the four noble truths, teachings on dependent origination and anatta etc.

[dhamma012]

An additional comment on the order of the first and second noble truth.

It is only because we experience dukkha that we are motivated to search for a cause. This is why the effect comes first and the cause comes second.

First, dukkha is experienced (first noble truth)
Then, after some searching the cause is found and ended (second noble truth)
Having ended the cause a release from dukkha is experienced (third noble truth)
Having experienced release, the path is reviewed in retrospect and confirmed as correct (fourth noble truth)

[dhamma012]

The linear progression of the four truths is a staple of all Buddhisms. Buddhisms that believe in the "five paths" have penetration into the noble truths as the third path, the darśanamārga or "path of seeing." In the case of the Sarvāstivādins, this "path of seeing" consisted of 16 dharmas spaced irregularly. It could be days, "moments," weeks, months, years, a lifetime, between these realizations, but they are always 16 and are always sequential. Four noble truths in four aspects each.

The Theravādin sect has four noble truths in three aspects each (which matches their suttas, namely the Sutta of the Turning of the Dharma-Wheel) and progress along the path to Bodhi is much more rapid in the quasi-subitist Theravādin reckoning than it is in the gradualist Sarvāstivādin reckoning, but the sequence is still important.

All Buddhist sects have to reckon with the eccentric placement of the "path to cessation" after "cessation itself."

Looks like there are still a few people following this thread . Nice to meet you.

I would argue that the placement of the path to cessation after cessation itself is not eccentric. It simply reflects the order in which certain kinds of knowledge are possible. For the practical explorer who doesn't know where the destination is, knowledge of the path must always arise after the goal has been reached.

People through the ages have only found it odd because none of them were explorers. They were all following the explorer's map and so knew the path in advance. Even in this case though, a disciple of the Buddha can only take the path as a working hypothesis at the beginning (albeit a much better working hypothesis than the Buddha had available to him as the first explorer). It is only after awakening that they know for themselves that the path they took was correct.

[mikenz66]

Take Abel Tasman and his discovery of New Zealand. He didn't know that he had taken the path to New Zealand until he saw it and realized it was a new land. It was only a couple of years later that his discoveries were included in maps that showed the path.

"Discovery" is perhaps too strong a word for the voyages of Tasman (and Columbus). Four of Tasman's men were killed by the the Māori inhabitants, whose ancestors sailed here from Polynesia many centuries before and who probably were the first people to discover these islands.


Mike

[Bundokji]

The analogy of a destination and a path are both "movement driven" in the sense that there are always a space between the two. This perspective can allow for a different interpretation of the sequence as demonstrating the development of the human psyche/wisdom, beginning with an over-reliance on movement as a prime solution to the problem of suffering, to knowing the limitation of this reliance and develop more skillful ways of living.

The first two noble truths can be descriptive of the sensual realm where movement is the plausible solution. Empirically, this seems to be inline with our daily observations. When one finds himself under unfavorable conditions, changing them has to be through movement either internally of externally. If we accept this scenario, the second noble truth has no inherent meaning. It is a cause of suffering due to its limitations, or a cause for happiness as long as it delivers us to the right destination.

This brings us to the third and fourth noble truths, of which their development relies on acknowledging the limitations of the first two as a problem and solution. This is why, nirodha has no inherent meaning of its own. Viññāṇa nirodha for example can be achieved through movement. For example, if i hate noise, i can simply leave a noisy surrounding in search for quietude.This would still be dependent on the limitations of the first two noble truths. This raises the question: which nirodha would be free from such limitations? the gradual path becomes the journey for such discovery.

If the path aims only to transcend the sensual realm that relies on movement, then deep states of samadhi and developing the Jhanas would suffice. Advanced mediators are said to have developed such abilities, and yet, they are not enlightened. One interpretation would be that the end goal is to see that nirodha itself is not a solution. How would that affect the sequence of the four noble truths? the question: why the spiritual life has to begin by reliance on movement seem to lose its meaning.

[dhamma012]

"Discovery" is perhaps too strong a word for the voyages of Tasman (and Columbus).

Yes, I should probably have put in a caveat that although Abel Tasman and Colombus were the first Europeans to discover these lands, the first humans to discover them were the Maori and First Nation tribes.

[dhamma012]

The first two noble truths can be descriptive of the sensual realm where movement is the plausible solution.

If we review other suttas, it shows that suffering arises from craving / attachment to any combination of form, feeling, perception, fabrications or consciousness. So suffering is not limited to that arising from sensuality. For example, there is craving associated with views or jhana. Craving for jhana is still better than craving for sensuality. But once jhana has been properly established as a base for insight and counter to sensuality, craving for jhana also needs to be dropped.

If the path aims only to transcend the sensual realm that relies on movement, then deep states of samadhi and developing the Jhanas would suffice. Advanced mediators are said to have developed such abilities, and yet, they are not enlightened.

Yes, awakening requires us to see the drawbacks of craving for / attaching to phenomena (things, ideas, states) that are inconstant. I've read that a practical way to get this realisation is to substitute our attachments such that we give up things that are more inconstant for those that are less (e.g. giving up more harmful sensuality for less harmful sensuality, then giving up less harmful sensuality for the first level of jhana, then giving up the less refined first jhana for the more refined second jhana etc.).

Having tried it recently with my regular cravings, I would say that the technique works. There is much less of a temptation to slide back into old cravings when I experience the happiness of leaving them behind for something better. The idea is that at a certain point we instinctively understand that it is the craving itself that is the problem and needs to be given up.

One interpretation would be that the end goal is to see that nirodha itself is not a solution.

A reading of other suttas shows that this can't be the case. If nirodha was not a solution, the Buddha would not have needed to go through his austerities. He could simply have spent the rest of his life absorbed in the dimension of nothingness that he learned from Alara Kalama.

[Bundokji]

If we review other suttas, it shows that suffering arises from craving / attachment to any combination of form, feeling, perception, fabrications or consciousness. So suffering is not limited to that arising from sensuality. For example, there is craving associated with views or jhana. Craving for jhana is still better than craving for sensuality. But once jhana has been properly established as a base for insight and counter to sensuality, craving for jhana also needs to be dropped.

Yes, which is why there can be craving for the formless as well. In the first sermon, where the wheel is said to be set in motion, the teachings is presented as a middle between hedonism and asceticism. In both cases, movement (or lack of) seems to be presented as a solution. The first pair present hedonism (sensuality/sankhara dhamma/kamma loka), while the second pair seem to present asceticism (the jhanas/rupa loka/sukha).

Yes, awakening requires us to see the drawbacks of craving for / attaching to phenomena (things, ideas, states) that are inconstant. I've read that a practical way to get this realisation is to substitute our attachments such that we give up things that are more inconstant for those that are less (e.g. giving up more harmful sensuality for less harmful sensuality, then giving up less harmful sensuality for the first level of jhana, then giving up the less refined first jhana for the more refined second jhana etc.).

I think the Buddha is named as the teacher of humans and gods for a reason. Heavenly realms seem to be equally cling-able. They go beyond the range of ordinary experience hence often associated with psychic powers. This disconnection with the ordinary can be viewed as nirodha.

Having tried it recently with my regular cravings, I would say that the technique works. There is much less of a temptation to slide back into old cravings when I experience the happiness of leaving them behind for something better. The idea is that at a certain point we instinctively understand that it is the craving itself that is the problem and needs to be given up.

Yes, a clear distinction between feeling and craving can happen upon attaining the cessation of perception and feeling in my understanding.

A reading of other suttas shows that this can't be the case. If nirodha was not a solution, the Buddha would not have needed to go through his austerities. He could simply have spent the rest of his life absorbed in the dimension of nothingness that he learned from Alara Kalama.

Nirodha as a middle between two pairs of noble truths differs from nirodha that depends on movement and range. This is when tanha is designated as a cause. I think this goes beyond the mind-body duality, but within this duality, why tanha is designated as a cause cannot be established with certainty. Its worth remembering that the first sermon was addressed to the five ascetics who shared his austerities. As long as one has not understood the middle, going against the grain through austerities seems to be the way through discovering nirodha.

[dhamma012]

Since part of the path is right effort, applying the idea of motion to the practice makes sense to me. But I believe our definitions are too different for me to engage fully on the rest of your comments.

We can define words in a number of ways. The most correct definition though, is the one that makes the most sense when applied to as many suttas as possible (e.g. in MN, AN etc.).

It doesn't make sense to view nirodha as just disconnecting from the ordinary. If heavenly pleasures are equally cling-able, then the first and second noble truths apply equally to the extraordinary as well. Craving for heavenly pleasures still result in dukkha.

To me, the middle way seems to be a practical way to ensure that pleasure and pain don't overwhelm our minds while we get in touch with, understand and end the cause of dukkha. So the middle way is used in service of realising the four noble truths.

[Bundokji]

It doesn't make sense to view nirodha as just disconnecting from the ordinary. If heavenly pleasures are equally cling-able, then the first and second noble truths apply equally to the extraordinary as well. Craving for heavenly pleasures still result in dukkha.

To me, the middle way seems to be a practical way to ensure that pleasure and pain don't overwhelm our minds while we get in touch with, understand and end the cause of dukkha. So the middle way is used in service of realising the four noble truths.

Nirodha is often presented as the goal in the language of purposive action. This equally apply to the sensual realm. If i feel thirsty, i can simply extinguish my thirst by drinking a glass of water. When craving is promoted as a cause, its not the feeling of thirst, but the craving for water that causes suffering.

The middle way was presented along with the four noble truths to the five ascetics, as a solution to the extremes of hedonism and asceticism. In the context of paṭiccasamuppāda, the middle is presented after introducing a polarity of existence and non-existence, of which the middle itself has two modes, ending with another two pairs and seeking the excluded middle.

[form]

There is no sequence except the first truth must come first