Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20088
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:55 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 am
Nibbana is causeless
If we take Dependent Origination in reverse order (path to Nibbana) why it is causeless?
"Dependent Origination in reverse order" is nothing but the removal of causes. Re-read the sutta and you will see it is so.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2708
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:14 am
Being causeless, it is also not a cause...
Thanks Paul. Sounds reasonable; similar to Luang Por Buddhadasa, who once said:
Nobody can create Nibbāna as it is beyond all causes and conditions. Nevertheless, we can create the conditions for realizing Nibbāna through actions which lead to the abandonment of the defilements.

https://www.suanmokkh.org/books/84#start_reading
It appears the opinion of Luang Por Buddhadasa appeared to be certain (noble) actions lead to the cooling of the defilements.
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:14 am
the opinion you read on the Internet would appear to be in error.
In Pali, there is the word "nibbāpeyya" (related to the Sanskrit "nirvāpayati" found in the Rigveda) which may possibly reflect what the writer on the internet was attempting to say:
Suppose a person was to drop a burning torch in a thicket of dry grass. If they don’t quickly extinguish it with their hands and feet, the creatures living in the grass and wood would come to ruin.

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso ādittaṃ tiṇukkaṃ sukkhe tiṇadāye nikkhipeyya; no ce hatthehi ca pādehi ca khippameva nibbāpeyya. Evañhi, bhikkhave, ye tiṇakaṭṭhanissitā pāṇā te anayabyasanaṃ āpajjeyyuṃ

https://suttacentral.net/sn14.12/en/sujato
Sk. ni(r)vārayati, Caus. of ni(r)varati, influenced in meaning by nirvāpayati. Caus. of nirvāti make cool by blowing (e.g. RV x.1613). See nibbuta on etym.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2708
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:33 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 am
If we take Dependent Origination in reverse order (path to Nibbana) why it is causeless?
I recall the suttas say (somewhere) the Path is conditioned. Here:
Monks, among all things conditioned, the Noble Eightfold Path is reckoned to be the best of them all. Those who have faith in the Noble Eightfold Path have faith in the best; and for those who have faith in the best, the best result will be theirs.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh155_Nyanap ... I.html#S48

The noble eightfold path is said to be the best of all conditioned things.

Yāvatā, bhikkhave, dhammā saṅkhatā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.34/en/sujato

SarathW
Posts: 9967
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:38 am

I recall the suttas say (somewhere) the Path is conditioned.
Agree the path is fabricated.
I think Nibbana (the causeless state) is already here.
That is why it is causeless.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2708
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:44 am

SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:38 am
I think Nibbana (the causeless state) is already here. That is why it is causeless.
Sounds reasonable. Thanks SarathW.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:29 pm
The point of your discussion is to bring simple free flowing language into semantics...
Friend, Markandeya. I struggle to agree with the above because the belief & conviction that Nibbana acts to cool the defilements probably gives rise to the common ideas about "God" forgiving sins, etc, which can become (bhava) very personal. For example:
Chapter 112: Al-Ikhlas — The Unity:

Revealed at Makkah: 4 verses

English Translation of the Holy Quran by Maulana Muhammad Ali

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Say: He, Allah, is One.

Allah is He on Whom all depend.

He begets not, nor is He begotten;

And none is like Him.

http://www.aaiil.org/text/hq/trans/ch112.shtml

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1674
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by Bundokji » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:50 am

The fire simile does not explain why the arahant goes beyond the possibilities of becoming deluded again.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

James Tan
Posts: 830
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by James Tan » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:54 pm

SarathW wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:38 am
I think Nibbana (the causeless state) is already here. That is why it is causeless.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:44 am
Sounds reasonable. Thanks SarathW.
There is a problem with this statement , if the Nibbana is already here , then there is no need to practise . This probably resemble the teaching of innate nature . What you need is find out is where it is !
BTW, Buddha never (in the suttas) said anything similar to this .
Another thing is, Nibbana does not necessarily reflect as a state . Rather , it is the ending of something , that's exactly the meaning imo .

But , you may follow your own understanding .
:reading:

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1521
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:49 pm

The Pali Canon offers sufficient evidence to dispense with the opinion of some interpreters that Nibbæna is sheer annihilation; even the more sophisticated view that Nibbæna is merely the destruction of defilements and the extinction of existence cannot stand up under scrutiny. Probably the most compelling testimony against that view is the well-known passage from the Udæna that declares with reference to Nibbæna that “there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned,” the existence of which makes possible “escape from the born, become, made and conditioned” (Ud 8.3)

It is “the unborn, unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage,” which the Buddha attained to on the night of his enlightenment (M 26.18)

The Island: Teachings on Nibbana
Ajahn Amaro, Ajahn Pasanno

JohnK
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by JohnK » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:48 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:47 am
...does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?
Maybe this has already been said or implied in this thread, but I don't think Nibbana "does" anything.
(As was mentioned here, whoever said that was speaking very informally, imprecisely, and ok, incorrectly.)
IMHO.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16452
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:14 am
I would suggest that it is the full and complete dissolution of greed & enmity, and the cooling of the temperament which is nibbana.

Nibbana is causeless, and its presence is characterised by the absence of such causes.

Being causeless, it is also not a cause, so the opinion you read on the Internet would appear to be in error.
I'm curious whether this statement gives support for concepts such as "Buddha Nature", i.e. "Nibbana is already there, we just need to remove what is obscuring it."?

[I'm not arguing one way or another, but it's something that occurred to me reading that sentence...]

:heart:
Mike

markandeya
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by markandeya » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:52 pm

Hi John
(As was mentioned here, whoever said that was speaking very informally, imprecisely, and ok, incorrectly.)
IMHO.
Informal, yes....

Can you describe Nibbana

Whats the formal definition of something that cant be described, how to make it precise and explain and define in correctly. I could splutter and stutter with meaningless things like what I meant was... i really meant.. your not understanding what I meant.....

But that would simply be shadow boxing, plus it was yesterday and the train already left the station.

It cant be described. Something as profound and within the goal of Buddhist practice as nibbana is impossible to describe, yet so many us try to attempt. From my side it was just an informal spontaneous reflection, its as simple as that, does it need to be perfect when there was no intention to make it objectively and intellectually precise.

For me this is the whole problem with constant and obsessive mental proliferation, its always about trying to define which is never really meant to be defined but only to be experienced and reflected upon.

Are poems meant to have commentary.

Its just second experience to even attempt it, something that William James covers in depth.

Two Zen Monks see a woman stranded, one carries the woman accross the road, or was it a river, maybe thats an important detail. further down the line, you know the rest...

Can you explain to me what is the taste of an apple, or the colour purple in words. It needs to be explained in a exact formal way, precisely and in such a correct way that it will replicate the exact same experience, if you cant then its falls within the same thing you that you have left as a comment.

Im just observing the whole thread as entertaining. Even if nibbana could be described would it give one a direct experience. If one could describe anthers experience could it be experienced in the same direct way just by describing.

Did I just waste 2 minutes of my life

This whole thing just reminded of a quote by Thomas Merton

"The logic of worldly success rests on a fallacy: the strange error that our perfection depends on the thoughts and opinions and applause of other men! A weird life it is, indeed, to be living always in somebody else's imagination, as if that were the only place in which one could at last become real!"
— Thomas Merton (The Seven Storey Mountain)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2708
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:05 pm

markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:52 pm
Thomas Merton
A Catholic Wanderer that abandoned the Gospels.

(Off-topic and ad hominem comments removed by moderator.)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2708
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:07 pm

JohnK wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:48 pm
Maybe this has already been said or implied in this thread, but I don't think Nibbana "does" anything.
Thanks John. It appears you share the view of Retrofuturist & Luang Por Buddhadasa.
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 pm
I'm curious whether this statement gives support for concepts such as "Buddha Nature", i.e. "Nibbana is already there, we just need to remove what is obscuring it."?
Thanks for your interest Mike. Imo, the statement does not support the idea of "Buddha Nature" because minds (beings) have many inherent unwholesome qualities that appear to not guarantee reaching & knowing Nibbana. As for "Nibbana is already there, we just need to remove what is obscuring it"; how does this conflict with the Pali suttas? Are you suggesting Nibbana is "mind-made" or a "nama-dhamma" ("mental phenomena) or "sankhata-dhatu" ("conceptually constructed element")?
But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.

But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.

Ud 8.3
It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful.

SN 12.65
There are these two elements:
Dve imā, ānanda, dhātuyo—

the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.
saṅkhatādhātu, asaṅkhatādhātu.

When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements,
Imā kho, ānanda, dve dhātuyo yato jānāti passati—

they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”
ettāvatāpi kho, ānanda, ‘dhātukusalo bhikkhū’ti alaṃvacanāyā”ti.

MN 115
:candle:
James Tan wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:54 pm
There is a problem with this statement , if the Nibbana is already here , then there is no need to practise . This probably resemble the teaching of innate nature .
Thanks James. It appears you share a similar view or concerns of MikeNZ. I think if there is ancient treasure of gold & silver buried in the ground; you still must work and dig to find it. Similarly, if there is a Path to Nibbana, I think a person must walk that Path to find the end of suffering. Thus, there appears to be a need to practise.
Dhp 275. Walking upon this path you will make an end of suffering.

markandeya
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by markandeya » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:36 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:05 pm
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:52 pm
Thomas Merton
A Catholic Wanderer that abandoned the Gospels. :roll:
Maybe he was smart to abandon the gospels

Enjoy your time doodoot

:anjali:

SarathW
Posts: 9967
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:29 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:49 pm
The Pali Canon offers sufficient evidence to dispense with the opinion of some interpreters that Nibbæna is sheer annihilation; even the more sophisticated view that Nibbæna is merely the destruction of defilements and the extinction of existence cannot stand up under scrutiny. Probably the most compelling testimony against that view is the well-known passage from the Udæna that declares with reference to Nibbæna that “there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned,” the existence of which makes possible “escape from the born, become, made and conditioned” (Ud 8.3)

It is “the unborn, unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage,” which the Buddha attained to on the night of his enlightenment (M 26.18)

The Island: Teachings on Nibbana
Ajahn Amaro, Ajahn Pasanno
I can agree with you and James too.
However you attain the Nibbana here and now and it is available for everyone practicing Noble Eightfold Path.
Buddha said even the Sala tree can attain Nibbana if it follow the path.
What is hard for us to understand is the state of the Buddha after Parinibbana because there is nothing intrinsic object called Buddha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AgarikaJ, Baidu [Spider], chownah, Majestic-12 [Bot], Sam Vara, StormBorn and 88 guests