Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

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DooDoot
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Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:47 am

Dear forum

I read the following opinion on the internet:
Nibbana brings peace, its cools down all temperaments, nibbana dissolves greed, enmity, nibbana is mindfullnes, nibbana is the awareness, nibbana is selfless, nibbana is the centre of meditation, nibbana is the one leading us onwards, nibbana is outside of all conditions, nibbana knows not self and other.
My sincere question for discussion is does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Thanks. Please discuss. :smile:

SarathW
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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:55 am

temperaments
What are tempaerments?
What is the Pali word for it?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:55 am
What are tempaerments?
What is the Pali word for it?
Carita
There are six kinds of temperaments (carita):

Lustful temperament (raga carita)
Hateful temperament (dosa carita)
Ignorant temperament (moha carita)
Devout temperament (saddhā carita)
Intellectual temperament (buddhi carita)
Discursive temperament (vitakka carita).

http://buddhistpage.com/six-kinds-temperaments-carita/

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:21 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:47 am
Dear forum

I read the following opinion on the internet:
Nibbana brings peace, its cools down all temperaments, nibbana dissolves greed, enmity, nibbana is mindfullnes, nibbana is the awareness, nibbana is selfless, nibbana is the centre of meditation, nibbana is the one leading us onwards, nibbana is outside of all conditions, nibbana knows not self and other.
My sincere question for discussion is does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Thanks. Please discuss. :smile:
If temperaments referring to habits , then no.
Say if you prefer to drink coffee your whole life , anytime whenever thinking of drinking , you will spontaneously goes for it .
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:31 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:21 am
If temperaments referring to habits , then no. Say if you prefer to drink coffee your whole life , anytime whenever thinking of drinking , you will spontaneously goes for it .
Thanks James. However, the point of the discussion is the question of whether the Nibbana Element cools down and dissolves defilements, similar to how the atmosphere on earth will, under the laws of physics, chemistry (whatever), somehow, cool down hot water.

Is Nibbana something that cools down defilements? Or are defilements cooled down when no sankhara fuel is added to them? :shrug: :shrug:
Question
Exactly why does water cool down so much slower than it heats up?

Answer
Water cools down and heats up at exactly the same rate under ideal conditions.
The specific heat capacity of water is 4200 J/KG/C. That is, it takes 4200 Joules to raise the temperature of 1Kg of water by 1 degree Celsius.

Conversely, the water must lose 4200 Joules of energy to cause a drop in temperature of 1 degree in 1Kg of water.

Water may seem to cool down much slower than it heats up because the heating up is an active process. I.e., when heating up water, you are putting it on a heat source which gives out a lot of energy in a short space of time. If you were able to create a 'cold' source which extracted energy at a similar rate, the temperature would drop just as quickly.

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae641.cfm
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by seeker242 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:36 am

Yes. All 5 aggregates are "cooled down" and all 3 poisons are gone. If they weren't, then it would not be nibbana to begin with.

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:39 am

seeker242 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:36 am
Yes. All 5 aggregates are "cooled down" and all 3 poisons are gone. If they weren't, then it would not be nibbana to begin with.
Sure. But the question is how does the cooling down of hot defilements occur? Does the Nibbana element itself cool down defilements?

For example, if I am in a warm sleeping bag in a tent but suddenly go outside into the snow, my body temperature will cool down. What causes the cooling down? Lack of sleeping bag or the cold temperature? Is either of these (lack of sleeping bag or cold temperature) analogous to Nibbana? :shrug:

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by seeker242 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:39 am
seeker242 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:36 am
Yes. All 5 aggregates are "cooled down" and all 3 poisons are gone. If they weren't, then it would not be nibbana to begin with.
Sure. But the question is how does the cooling down of hot defilements occur? Does the Nibbana element itself cool down defilements?
I don't think the quote you posted is even addressing that or is relevant to the question. It's just listing qualities, so to speak, of nibbana in a non-technical manner without even considering what causes what and nothing wrong with speaking that way.

Technically, things like transcendental dependent origination looks at the causes, conditions, etc.
"The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply.

"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.

"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.

"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

"Concentration, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' should be the reply.

"Happiness, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' should be the reply.

"Tranquillity, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for tranquillity? 'Rapture' should be the reply.

"Rapture, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for rapture? 'Joy' should be the reply.

"Joy, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for joy? 'Faith' should be the reply.

"Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply.

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:16 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:31 am
James Tan wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:21 am
If temperaments referring to habits , then no. Say if you prefer to drink coffee your whole life , anytime whenever thinking of drinking , you will spontaneously goes for it .
Thanks James. However, the point of the discussion is the question of whether the Nibbana Element cools down and dissolves defilements, similar to how the atmosphere on earth will, under the laws of physics, chemistry (whatever), somehow, cool down hot water.

Is Nibbana something that cools down defilements? Or are defilements cooled down when no sankhara fuel is added to them? :shrug: :shrug:
Question
Exactly why does water cool down so much slower than it heats up?

Answer
Water cools down and heats up at exactly the same rate under ideal conditions.
The specific heat capacity of water is 4200 J/KG/C. That is, it takes 4200 Joules to raise the temperature of 1Kg of water by 1 degree Celsius.

Conversely, the water must lose 4200 Joules of energy to cause a drop in temperature of 1 degree in 1Kg of water.

Water may seem to cool down much slower than it heats up because the heating up is an active process. I.e., when heating up water, you are putting it on a heat source which gives out a lot of energy in a short space of time. If you were able to create a 'cold' source which extracted energy at a similar rate, the temperature would drop just as quickly.

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae641.cfm
My understanding is , not that Nibbana (if that is a state) cooling down defilements . Rather , it is the stopping of the craving that brings an end to the perpetuating of our habitual tendency . When we eliminate the ignorance we cut off the ground for any delusion to arise hence seeing the reality
as it is .
:reading:

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by markandeya » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:29 pm

Thanks James. However, the point of the discussion
The point of your discussion is to bring simple free flowing language into semantics, because you are bored and have issues :broke:

Wouldnt it be useful for you to contemplate the nature of your own temporary existence, its really quite simple.

Nibbana is cooling.

:anjali:

Off-topic and ad hominem content removed by moderator

paul
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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by paul » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:00 pm

Although this is presented as an image, the feeling of a wholesome mind state is in fact cool. There is a Thai saying, "jai yen', which means 'cool heart' :

“The standard analogy here is of the way in which a fire goes out. That, in fact,
is what unbinding (nibbana) means. According to the physics taught at the time of
the Buddha, the property of fire exists in a calm, latent state to a greater or lesser
degree in all objects. When “provoked” (kuppa) it seizes and clings to its fuel. It
goes out—literally, it was said to be “released” (mutta)—when it lets go of its
clinging to the fuel. For this reason, the agitated flames of a burning fire were
viewed as an ideal image for the way in which the mind suffers from the
agitation of clinging to the aggregates (Iti 93). The act of a fire’s going out was
equally ideal as an image for the peace and calm that come when the mind gains
release through letting go.”—-Right Mindfulness, Thanissaro.

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:11 pm

For an alternative view of the Fire Simile see:

Nibbāna and The Fire Simile ( a 'Pahan Kanuwa' Sermon) by Bhikkhu Kañukurunde Ñānananda
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books
The answer is aleady implicit in the statement: 'The fire
has gone out.' How ridiculous it is to conclude that the fire goes [7]
somewhere when it goes out. If one asks whether the
extinguished fire has gone to the East or West or North or South,
it is a foolish question. If something exists depending on causes
and conditions, when those causes and conditions are removed,
it has to cease. This truth is implicit in the dictum 'bhavanirodho [8]
nibbāna'. 'Cessation of existence is extinction (or Nibbāna).'
The cessation of existence itself is Nibbāna. Apart from this
there is no other Nibbāna. What the Buddha points out to us is
the fact that this Nibbāna is to be realized here and now.

Notes:
7. There is a flush of Buddhist literature thriving in the
West which attempts to interpret this fire simile in the
light of the Vedic myth that the extinguished fire 'goes
into hiding'. Though the Buddha succeeded in
convincing the Brahmin interlocutors of the
dependently arisen nature of fire by the reductio-adabsurdum
method, these scholars seem to be impervious
to his arguments. What is worse, misinterpretations
have even sought refuge in blatant mis-translations of
sacred texts.

8. The term 'extinction' is anathema to the West in general.
Perhaps as a euphemism, 'extinguishment' might be
'passable'. But rather than playing with the 'fire-simile' it
is better to accept the obvious conclusions, willy nilly.
:heart:
Mike

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DooDoot
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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:36 pm

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:29 pm
The point of your discussion is to bring simple free flowing language into semantics, because you are bored and have issues
Thank you Markandeya but I am not bored & I do not have issues. SN 22.59, the 2nd Sermon of the Buddha, which produced the 1st Arahant Disciples, says:
Is consciousness constant or inconstant?

Inconstant, lord.

And is that which is inconstant satisfying or unsatisfying?

Unsatisfying, lord.

Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Or AN 4.41:
And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The above quotes appear to say it is insight (vipassana) that cools defilements & temperaments. This is why I raised this discussion. Does not adding fuel (un-sankhara-ing) cool defilements? Does insight (vipassana) cool defilements? Or does the Nibbana Element itself cool defilements? :shrug: :shrug:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:29 pm
Wouldnt it be useful for you to contemplate the nature of your own temporary existence, its really quite simple.
SN 22.59 appears to say because the five aggregates are impermanent, they cannot be regard as "self", "Atman", "mine" or "your own". It appears what is "temporary" cannot be regarded as "your own"; at least according to Buddha-Dhamma.
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:29 pm
Nibbana is cooling.
If Nibbana was "cooling" then, since "cooling" is a gradual reduction of/in temperature, NIbbana would be gradual or impermanent, i.e., not fixed; not stable. I doubt the Pali suttas support this idea because MN 140 appears to say Nibbana does not fluctuate.
His release, being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Nibbana — the undeceptive — is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this — Nibbana, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Or the following Nibbana Sutta:
For the supported there is instability, for the unsupported there is no instability; when there is no instability there is serenity; when there is serenity there is no inclination: when there is no inclination there is no coming-and-going; when there is no coming-and-going there is no decease-and-uprising; when there is no decease-and-uprising there is neither "here" nor "beyond" nor "in between the two." Just this is the end of suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
:anjali:

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:14 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:47 am
Dear forum

I read the following opinion on the internet:
Nibbana brings peace, its cools down all temperaments, nibbana dissolves greed, enmity, nibbana is mindfullnes, nibbana is the awareness, nibbana is selfless, nibbana is the centre of meditation, nibbana is the one leading us onwards, nibbana is outside of all conditions, nibbana knows not self and other.
My sincere question for discussion is does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Thanks. Please discuss. :smile:
I would suggest that it is the full and complete dissolution of greed & enmity, and the cooling of the temperament which is nibbana.

Nibbana is causeless, and its presence is characterised by the absence of such causes.

Being causeless, it is also not a cause, so the opinion you read on the Internet would appear to be in error.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Does Nibbana cool down all temperaments & dissolve greed & enmity?

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 am

Nibbana is causeless
If we take Dependent Origination in reverse order (path to Nibbana) why it is causeless?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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