How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

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SarathW
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How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:24 am

How the world empty if it is dependently originated?
If everything is dependently originated, there should be some thing before.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by pegembara » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:06 am

The world is empty precisely because it is dependently originated. It depends on the 6 sense bases functioning.
"I will teach you the origination of the world & the ending of the world.

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by Crazy cloud » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:24 am
How the world empty if it is dependently originated?
If everything is dependently originated, there should be some thing before.
If we could think us out of this mess, then we wouldn't have this conversation now - so, the answer is that whatever you think it is, that it is not, and that is really to trust ...
That what you ask for is the truth, but the truth isn't dependent on your thinking, so who is asking .., if not a kind of false agent trying to trick your mind?

my opinions, as usual ... be well!
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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retrofuturist
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Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:57 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:24 am
How the world empty if it is dependently originated?
If everything is dependently originated, there should be some thing before.
Yes, ignorance.

Now, you tell me how anything that is literally dependent upon ignorance for its being, could be anything other than empty?

I'll wait.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Polar Bear
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Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:19 am

Emptiness is always qualified. So the proper question is:

In what sense is the world empty?

And the answer to that is the world is empty of a self and of what belongs to a self.
And then Venerable Ānanda … said to the Buddha: “Sir, they say that ‘the world is empty’. What does the saying ‘the world is empty’ refer to?” “Ānanda, they say that ‘the world is empty’ because it’s empty of self or what belongs to self. And what is empty of self or what belongs to self? The eye, sights, eye consciousness, and eye contact are empty of self or what belongs to self. … The pleasant, painful, or neutral feeling that arises conditioned by mind contact is also empty of self or what belongs to self. They say that ‘the world is empty’ because it’s empty of self or what belongs to self.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.85/en/sujato
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

James Tan
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Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:20 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:24 am
How the world empty if it is dependently originated?
If everything is dependently originated, there should be some thing before.
Can you define the world and empty per your question ?

Empty meaning (Dictionary) : containing nothing; not filled or occupied, vacant .
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:11 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:24 am
How the world empty if it is dependently originated?
If everything is dependently originated, there should be some thing before.
The world is empty because it is dependently arising - all is conditional. Empty of self, empty or essence, empty of independent existence.

Presumably the big bang occurred in dependence upon conditions too. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:22 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:19 am
Emptiness is always qualified. So the proper question is:

In what sense is the world empty?

And the answer to that is the world is empty of a self and of what belongs to a self.
And then Venerable Ānanda … said to the Buddha: “Sir, they say that ‘the world is empty’. What does the saying ‘the world is empty’ refer to?” “Ānanda, they say that ‘the world is empty’ because it’s empty of self or what belongs to self. And what is empty of self or what belongs to self? The eye, sights, eye consciousness, and eye contact are empty of self or what belongs to self. … The pleasant, painful, or neutral feeling that arises conditioned by mind contact is also empty of self or what belongs to self. They say that ‘the world is empty’ because it’s empty of self or what belongs to self.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.85/en/sujato
Agree.
This is what I am thinking about.
Does this mean the world is not empty?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
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Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How the world empty if it is dependently originated?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:33 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:22 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:19 am
Emptiness is always qualified. So the proper question is:

In what sense is the world empty?

And the answer to that is the world is empty of a self and of what belongs to a self.
And then Venerable Ānanda … said to the Buddha: “Sir, they say that ‘the world is empty’. What does the saying ‘the world is empty’ refer to?” “Ānanda, they say that ‘the world is empty’ because it’s empty of self or what belongs to self. And what is empty of self or what belongs to self? The eye, sights, eye consciousness, and eye contact are empty of self or what belongs to self. … The pleasant, painful, or neutral feeling that arises conditioned by mind contact is also empty of self or what belongs to self. They say that ‘the world is empty’ because it’s empty of self or what belongs to self.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.85/en/sujato
Agree.
This is what I am thinking about.
Does this mean the world is not empty?
This is referring to our personal world, ie our immediate experience.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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