Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:45 am
James Tan wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:39 am
Pali language superior than Chan ? Sure ?
Pali teachings.
Hmm, Agama teachings not bad either .
:reading:

markandeya
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by markandeya » Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:58 pm

James Tan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:39 am
Pali language superior than Chan ? Sure ?
Pali teachings.
Hmm, Agama teachings not bad either .
According to doodoo

pali buddhism is the only way, anything is else is ignorance and simple wrong and inferior

And then he translates rupa as only fixed to the body physical body :shrug:

rupa is concept, being stuck in a concept nama is to give name to this concept, yeah sure mind and body is one, but rupa is not physical body

Ad hominem content deleted by moderator.

markandeya
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by markandeya » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:17 pm

Doodoot, if you want to study the science of kaya alone then you need to turn to empirical sciences, such as Biology, Chemistry and Physics, using your skills in outward going fixed percpetion.

Nikayas will deal with dhammas from a more transcedent Ni view~dhitti, maybe some others can help you find the dhamma context of dhitti as something different from a formed opinion and belief, Nikaya deals and includes the arupa field where it threads the Buddha, Intermediate with dhamma into insights in nama and rupa formations.

:reading:

if you want to understand the great history and ancient connection between India and China;s Dharma connection then I would reccomend Chinese Monks in India by Latika Lahari.

:reading: :candle:

form
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by form » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:40 pm

This is a great thread.

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:40 am

markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:58 pm
According to doodoo

pali buddhism is the only way
According to the Pali suttas; it is the only way:
273. Of all the paths the Eightfold Path is the best; of all the truths the Four Noble Truths are the best; of all things passionlessness is the best: of men the Seeing One (the Buddha) is the best.

274. This is the only path; there is none other for the purification of insight. Tread this path, and you will bewilder Mara.

275. Walking upon this path you will make an end of suffering.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:58 pm
And then he translates rupa as only fixed to the body physical body
Rupa is defined in the suttas, as was posted:
The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality (rupa)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
And why, bhikkhus, do you call it form (rupa)? ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form. Deformed by what? Deformed by cold, deformed by heat, deformed by hunger, deformed by thirst, deformed by contact with flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and serpents. ‘It is deformed,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called form.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property.

And what is the water property? The water property may be either internal or external. What is the internal water property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's water, watery, & sustained: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil-of-the-joints, urine, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's water, watery, & sustained: This is called the internal water property.

And what is the fire property? The fire property may be either internal or external. What is the internal fire property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, chewed, & savored gets properly digested; or anything else internal, within oneself, that's fire, fiery, & sustained: This is called the internal fire property.

And what is the wind property? The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Anything internal, belonging to oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-and-out breathing, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:58 pm
rupa is concept, being stuck in a concept nama is to give name to this concept, yeah sure mind and body is one, but rupa is not physical body
The quotes above from the Pali suttas do not sound like "concepts". Possibly you are referring to the "nama-rupa" of Brahmanism & Hinduism:
Nāmarūpa-vyākaraṇa (Sanskrit: नामरुपव्याकरण ), in Hindu philosophy, refers to the process of evolution of differentiation into names and forms i.e. to the unfolding of the primal state into the manifest world prior to which unfolding there was nothing that existed; it refers to the conditioned reality. In the Upanishads this term is used to indicate the self-willed manifestation of Brahman under visible and nameable aspects, to the said manifestation into the fictitious plurality of the phenomenal world owing to maya, the unreal adjunct. According to Hindu scriptures the world in each age emanates from Brahman mirrored upon maya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namarupa-vyakarana
It appears evident the concept ( ;) ) of "nama-rupa" pre-dated Buddhism and, when the Buddha spoke to Brahmins who did not know Buddhism, the Buddha probably used the term "nama-rupa" with its Brahmanistic meaning, i.e., "naming-forms", such as below:
At Savatthi. Then the brahman Jata Bharadvaja went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he addressed the Blessed One with a verse:

A tangle within,
a tangle without,
people are entangled
in a tangle.
Gotama, I ask you this:
who can untangle this tangle?

[The Buddha:]
A man established in virtue,
discerning,
developing discernment & mind,
a monk ardent, astute:
he can untangle this tangle.

Those whose passion,
aversion,
& ignorance
have faded away,
arahants, their effluents ended:
for them the tangle's untangled.

Where naming-of-form,
along with perception
of impingement & form,
totally stop without trace:
that's where the tangle
is cut.

When this was said, the brahman Jata Bharadvaja said to the Blessed One, "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. Let me obtain the going forth in Master Gotama's presence, let me obtain admission."

Then the brahman Jata Bharadvaja received the going forth & the admission in the Blessed One's presence. And not long after his admission — dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And so Ven. Bharadvaja became another one of the arahants.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:anjali:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:17 pm
Doodoot, if you want to study the science of kaya...
It was posted many times "kaya" is not necessarily "rupa" in the Pali suttas.
...if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.'... MN 26
:roll:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:17 pm
you need to turn to empirical sciences, such as Biology, Chemistry and Physics, using your skills in outward going fixed percpetion.

Oh dear. The Pali suttas refer to "rupa" as "biology" because the "rupa-biology" is a common object of attachment that is to be abandoned. If I used my consummate skills in fixed perception of Truth/Reality to turn to Biology, Chemistry and Physics, these worldly sciences do not teach Biology, Chemistry and Physics are Anatta (Not-Self) thus they would not lead to Liberation. :roll:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:17 pm
Nikayas will deal with dhammas from a more transcedent Ni view~dhitti, maybe some others can help you find the dhamma context of dhitti as something different from a formed opinion and belief, Nikaya deals and includes the arupa field where it threads the Buddha, Intermediate with dhamma into insights in nama and rupa formations.
Nikaya does not appear to be what you are posting what Nikaya is; particulary the obsession with "arupa" ,which appears obviously a type of "becoming" when clung to so rigidly. The Noble Path does not mention "arupa"; apart from a type of "becoming" when clung to obsessively:
There are these three becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming & formless becoming (arūpabhavo). This is called becoming.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Lust for arupa is a "fetter" ("chain") in Pali Buddhism:
Lust for luminous form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness and ignorance.

Rūparāgo, arūparāgo, māno, uddhaccaṃ, avijjā—

These are the five higher fetters.

imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañcuddhambhāgiyāni saṃyojanāni.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.70/en/sujato
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:17 pm
if you want to understand the great history and ancient connection between India and China;s Dharma connection then I would reccomend Chinese Monks in India by Latika Lahari.
Thanks. But the Pali suttas say the Buddha said He was the best. :twothumbsup: MN 115 says it is impossible for a mind of Right View to take refuge in another Teacher. :ugeek:
He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view ...could acknowledge another teacher ― there is no such possibility.’

And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person (puthujjana) ...might acknowledge another teacher ― there is such a possibility.’

MN 115 http://www.yellowrobe.com/component/con ... ments.html

markandeya
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by markandeya » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:40 pm

markandeya wrote: ↑Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:38 pm
I will have a look later as a perfect example from a discourse from Luang Por Ajahn Chah.

Doodoot
Please post it.
There you go

Try not to taste the honey by reading the label and licking the jar, just open the lid and taste it directly. There is nothing in the suttas that promote intellectual study.

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:36 am

markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:40 pm
Try not to taste the honey by reading the label and licking the jar, just open the lid and taste it directly. There is nothing in the suttas that promote intellectual study.
If Ajahn Chah actually said this, it sounds wrong & also illogical. Only a heedless fool would open a jar and lick the contents without carefully reading the label about the contents, instructions, expiry date, etc.

Sweeney
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Sweeney » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:36 am
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:40 pm
Try not to taste the honey by reading the label and licking the jar, just open the lid and taste it directly. There is nothing in the suttas that promote intellectual study.
If Ajahn Chah actually said this, it sounds wrong & also illogical. Only a heedless fool would open a jar and lick the contents without carefully reading the label about the contents, instructions, expiry date, etc.
Uh it's honey... Why would you carefully read the contents, instructions and expiry date? Although I understand the analogy you're trying to make, does that mean there's an expiry date on Buddhism? Should we discard the teachings of the Buddha simply because of 2500 years of influence from Brahmanic and other cultures? You yourself said you don't believe everything you read in the Sutta's... So open up the jar and have a taste, if it's as sweet as honey, it should last a long time!
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:59 am

markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:40 pm
Try not to taste the honey by reading the label and licking the jar, just open the lid and taste it directly. There is nothing in the suttas that promote intellectual study.
The suttas appear much more clear than Ajahn Chah:
When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on delusion, then he places faith in him; filled with faith he visits him and pays respect to him; having paid respect to him, he gives ear; when he gives ear, he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the discovery of truth; in this way one discovers truth; in this way we describe the discovery of truth. But as yet there is no final arrival at truth.

The final arrival at truth, Bhāradvāja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those same things. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the final arrival at truth; in this way one finally arrives at truth; in this way we describe the final arrival at truth.

https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/bodhi
:alien:
Sweeney wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:52 am
Uh it's honey...
Sorry but I practised Buddhism for many years in Thailand before I ever read a sutta. Regardless, Ajahn Chah's teachings never appealed to me. As the saying goes: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." If have no interest in teachers like Ajahn Chah that are always taking to horses. When I lived in Thailand, when AC was old and dying, about four of five of his senior Western monks suddenly disrobed. Too much talking to horses that are not thirsty. :roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Sweeney
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Sweeney » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:02 pm

You yourself said you don't believe everything you read in the Sutta's...
My bad, couldn't find the post. I must have seen it somewhere else on Dhamma Wheel. Not sure if it was you or someone else now... Anyway, taste the honey!
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:03 pm

Sweeney wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:02 pm
Anyway, taste the honey!
As a newbie here, I would recommend to abandon this type of posting. Its unrelated to Dhamma practise.

Sweeney
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Sweeney » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:09 pm

Also not saying there isn't anything in the Sutta's to promote intellectual study, as that is why most of us are here is it not? Just that the retorted analogy
Only a heedless fool would open a jar and lick the contents without carefully reading the label about the contents, instructions, expiry date, etc.
Is a bit askew.
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

Sweeney
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Sweeney » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:09 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:03 pm
Sweeney wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:02 pm
Anyway, taste the honey!
As a newbie here, I would recommend to abandon this type of posting. Its unrelated to Dhamma practise.
In what way?
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

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DooDoot
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:20 pm

Sweeney wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:52 am
You yourself said you don't believe everything you read in the Sutta's...
Possibly. But I did not say I disbelieve everything I read in the suttas. The suttas exhort to study clearly, investigate the teachings thoroughly and then accurately practise those well-examined teachings, This is why Right Understanding is the 1st factor of the path.
Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/sujato
:candle:
Sweeney wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:09 pm
In what way?
For the reasons I posted. Just heedless evangelism & presumptuousness. How many lost souls did I meet in Thailand with Ajahn Chah books who were trying to taste the honey but not tasting the honey. "Tasting the honey" can also become a dogma.
Sweeney wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:52 am
Also not saying there isn't anything in the Sutta's to promote intellectual study, as that is why most of us are here is it not?
Indeed. :smile: But the suttas are the enlightenment experience of a Buddha. They are not intended to be rejected but to be honored.
Past Buddhas,
future Buddhas,
& he who is the Buddha now,
removing the sorrow of many —

all have dwelt,
will dwell, he dwells,
revering the true Dhamma.
This, for Buddhas, is a natural law.

Therefore one who desires his own good,
aspiring for greatness,
should respect the true Dhamma,
recollecting the Buddhas' Teaching
.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

markandeya
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:39 pm

Nothing wrong with getting to grips with the intellect but to get stuck in them is not wise.

Just goes round and round.

I hope your getting paid for this doodoot.

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