Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

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LuisR
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Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by LuisR » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am

How do we know if what we are reading is authentic or not?

SarathW
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:26 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
How do we know if what we are reading is authentic or not?
By practicing and experience it yourself.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:39 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
How do we know if what we are reading is authentic or not?
What do you mean here by "authentic"?

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budo
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by budo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:03 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
How do we know if what we are reading is authentic or not?
Ultimately you cannot know without first hand experience. Relatively, you can know through comparative analysis done by monks like Bhikkhu Analayo and others.

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Will
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Will » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:35 pm

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
How do we know if what we are reading is authentic or not?
From the results shown by the noble virtues of kindness, wisdom, equanimity, joy, moral purity, etcetera, expressed in the lives of many bhikkhus known to history, even up to the present day. They all were steeped in the Dhamma taught in the suttas.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

markandeya
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm

dhammarelax wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:05 pm
Dear Friends

I would add that not only reading the suttas is highly recommended, but memorizing them, reciting them, analyzing and understanding.

smile
dhammarelax
:clap:

I use simple texts as a daily practice for recital and reflection. This brings a simple understanding that than be expanded into all the texts, as they are not contradicting each other, if the simple understanding is lost then reading the suttas can be complex mechanical and the essence can be obscured and there is then danger of being stuck in words.

It seems to me that the texts can sometimes be read in the wrong way, scholars can read study the texts but have no paradigm shift all and often end in biased opinions and breed sectarianism . Some people can do vipassana and have direct paradigm shifts when not even reading any texts at all and all their understanding will be in line with the texts. I will have a look later as a perfect example from a discourse from Luang Por Ajahn Chah.

If reading sutta culminates in intellectual understanding rather than penetrating the dhamma to know buddha, it maybe be using the wrong faculties to understand the true meaning of the suttas.

Are there any examples in the suttas where the Buddha refers to texts in his teachings.

Balance is key, middle way is key, but what is the essence of majjima nikaya
majjima middle, intermediate
Ni without
Kaya Body

the wisdom of Formless teachings

What is the definition of form and body in the suttas

what is this conscious level without extremes.

While agree the suttas should bring one to meditation, meditation is just a medium. So maybe we need a broader definition of meditation, and when meditating who is actually meditating. And who is reading the suttas.

:anjali:

markandeya
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm

What about how to read the suttas


One of the problems I have seen with sutta knowledge is this a subtle type of pressure that some seem to include with the suttas, where the more suttas you have read the more you understand the dhamma and know dhamma better. Some have a natural vocation to read more and memorize more while others may have simple methods, or not even read at all.

I know many stories from India where jivanmuktas ~individual liberation are illiterate, ok they are Hindu liberated not Buddhist Liberated :thinking: but still the culture to notice any type of liberation is in place

Some of the forest masters say simple recite Budho with the breath and follow that and its enough, and that can sometimes get judged by city slickers as dhamma for peasants.

On the internet its hard to see who has knowledge if it comes down to these levels, many can quite easily claim to know something with just a simple google search. Not on this site but on others where someone has learned massive amounts of texts and has his eye on the guru seat, these types of things concern me, there are already enough blind ego based gurus and elitist who think that by amount of book knowledge equates to being a knower of Buddha Dhamma.

In the Ch'an tradition certain texts to study where not even given before certain amount of purification was met and then the teacher would give them some text to study. Some may have natural brilliant inclination for dhamma study with no prior experience of any tradition, yet they would have to wait in line and sit behind someones back and submit to some man made hierarchy, these types of things I dislike as much as I dislike the intrusion and naive acceptance of protagonists.

The ability to identify people that get insights into texts is not well developed in many groups that I have been to in the west, because there is so much to do with I have practiced for so long, I have sat for so many weeks with such a such teacher, I have read all the these texts :broke: complete waste of time as stream entering the wrong way down the stream, instead of the golden bowl going upstream. Chill out with the pot washer one day, he may have great insights in to life.

Whats the end goal, become a monk, , or is it to sit in meditation trance like a statue.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:50 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
Balance is key, middle way is key, but what is the essence of majjima nikaya
majjima middle, intermediate
Ni without
Kaya Body

the wisdom of Formless teachings

What is the definition of form and body in the suttas
Is this your own private reflection or are you trying to argue that these words semantically mean these things on an etymological level?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

markandeya
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by markandeya » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:50 pm

Hi Coëmgenu
Is this your own private reflection or are you trying to argue that these words semantically mean these things on an etymological level?
Its not directed at anyone, certainly not to argue, its an opened ended question for thought and reflection to seek to know what the essence of majjhima nikayas are, but breaking down compounds can sometimes help to draw on reflection. If your stuck on words you may think its got something to do with semantics and etymological level.

For more of a technical answer if i listen or read a sutta I will first prepare my mind that they are middle teachings, beyond the extremes, middle is that which arises in pure equanimity, ni is always associated as something transcendent kaya is the body, the body is made up of the skandhas.

wisdom arises somewhere in the middle beyond any extremes

:anjali:

James Tan
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:31 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
How do we know if what we are reading is authentic or not?
You don't know , at least not all.
Early text does not necessarily reflect genuine or authenticity . Some so called early buddhist text were corrupted and distorted .
Comparison does help bring us closer to what one consider to be genuinely spoken by the Buddha .
But , there is another problem , where the interpretation of the words and phrases and sutta may vary according to different people .
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:35 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:25 am
How do we know if what we are reading is authentic or not?
Ultimately we don't, so initially there is an element of faith involved. With practice and experience there is a growing confidence.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Bundokji
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Re: Authenticity. From: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by Bundokji » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:08 am

The issue of authenticity should concern historians and scholars. For a practitioner, the priority is better be understanding the teachings, seeing if they correspond with experience, how they influence behavior and whether they lead to positive outcomes (if followed) or not.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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DooDoot
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:36 am

markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
This brings a simple understanding ...
;)
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
It seems to me that the texts can sometimes be read in the wrong way...
;)
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
I will have a look later as a perfect example from a discourse from Luang Por Ajahn Chah.
Please post it.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
Balance is key, middle way is key, but what is the essence of majjima nikaya
majjima middle, intermediate
Ni without
Kaya Body
"Nikaya" means "group" or "collection" or "assemblage", such as:
I don’t see see any other order of beings as elaborate as the animal realm.

Monks, I can imagine no one group of beings more variegated than that of common animals

Bhikkhus, I do not see any other order of living beings so diversified as those in the animal realm.

Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekanikāyampi samanupassāmi evaṃ cittaṃ yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, tiracchānagatā pāṇā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.100/en/sujato
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
the wisdom of Formless teachings
The Pali word for "formless" is "arupa" rather than "akaya". The word "kaya" does not appear to necessarily mean "rupa". Regardless, the "formless" is not mentioned in the Noble Eightfold Path of the Buddha. The "formless" appears similar to wearing a condom for not being able to practise coitus interruptus at the 4th jhana.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
What is the definition of form and body in the suttas
Physical body is "rupa". "Kaya" means "collection" and can, dependent on context, refer to much more than the physical elements.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
what is this conscious level without extremes.
The suttas say all consciousness, whether gross or subtle, is Non-Atman. 2nd Sermon. SN 22.59.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm
While agree the suttas should bring one to meditation, meditation is just a medium. So maybe we need a broader definition of meditation, and when meditating who is actually meditating. And who is reading the suttas.
I disagree with the above. Meditation is for beginners. Sutta is for refinement, to ensure the many delusions of spiritual practise are avoided; such the behaviour of exalting an imaginary "Self/Atman" and disparaging imaginary "Others/ParaAtman" (MN 139).
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
What about how to read the suttas
Paṭibhātu taṃ, dummukhā
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
One of the problems I have seen with sutta knowledge is this a subtle type of pressure that some seem to include with the suttas, where the more suttas you have read the more you understand the dhamma and know dhamma better. Some have a natural vocation to read more and memorize more while others may have simple methods, or not even read at all.
Many might overplay the place of sutta learning but not even reading sutta at all will lead one to be lost.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
I know many stories from India where jivanmuktas ~individual liberation are illiterate, ok they are Hindu liberated not Buddhist Liberated
Like they are stoned on drugs? Like stoned on formless silent meditation, devoid of wisdom?
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
Some of the forest masters say simple recite Budho with the breath and follow that and its enough, and that can sometimes get judged by city slickers as dhamma for peasants.
Its dhamma for peasants.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
On the internet its hard to see who has knowledge if it comes down to these levels, many can quite easily claim to know something with just a simple google search. Not on this site but on others where someone has learned massive amounts of texts and has his eye on the guru seat, these types of things concern me, there are already enough blind ego based gurus and elitist who think that by amount of book knowledge equates to being a knower of Buddha Dhamma.
Book knowledge certainly does not amount to enlightenment. But I imagine not understanding the books probably certainly amounts to non-enlightenment. The books are largely the actual enlightenment experience of a Buddha; which is empty of Atmanification or Selfing; seeing Atmans/Selves left, right, centre, up, down, everywhere. :roll:
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
In the Ch'an tradition
The Pali is superior to Chan; which is heavily influenced by non-thinking Taoism. The Buddha did not teach Chan.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
Whats the end goal, become a monk, , or is it to sit in meditation trance like a statue.
Goal is wisdom.
Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?

No, friend.

So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration [of Arahantship] without having attained any of these Dhammas?

We are released [liberated] through discernment [wisdom], friend Susima.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:50 pm
Its not directed at anyone...
:thumbsup:
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
to know what the essence of majjhima nikayas are
Majjhima Nikaya means Middle-Length Collection (rather than Chaan or Taoist or Hindu formlessness)
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
ni is always associated as something transcendent kaya is the body, the body is made up of the skandhas.
The suttas say "rupa" ("physical body") is made up of four elements of earth, wind, fire & water. As for "kaya", in some contexts, it appears to mean the "collection" or "group" of "five aggregates", such as in:
The Buddha said that these five grasping aggregates are identity.

Ime kho, āvuso visākha, pañcupādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

James Tan
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:39 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:36 am
markandeya wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:27 pm
In the Ch'an tradition
The Pali is superior to Chan; which is heavily influenced by non-thinking Taoism. The Buddha did not teach Chan.



Pali language superior than Chan ? Sure ?
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Why Read the Suttas?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:45 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:39 am
Pali language superior than Chan ? Sure ?
Pali teachings.

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