Quick death is worse than torture?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: Quick death is worse than torture?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:40 am

Here's a link to the thread that Robert is quoting: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25102&start=75#p361567
robertk wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:06 am

Fortunately ven. Dhammanando explained this some time ago:

i
hrjordan wrote:
"If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness
]. "
. Let me give one oft-quoted specimen of Thanissaro's equivocation, from his article The Not-Self Strategy:
The evidence for this reading [i.e. of the anattā teaching] of the Canon centers around four points:

[...]

3. Views that there is no self are ranked with views that that there is a self as a "fetter of views" which a person aiming at release from suffering would do well to avoid.
The Not-self Strategy

But this is simply false. What is ranked among the fetter of views in the Sabbāsava Sutta is not: "There is no self" but rather the ucchedadiṭṭhi: "There is no self for me.
(ven Dhammanando)

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Quick death is worse than torture?

Post by salayatananirodha » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:39 pm

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications...
...Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

kaccayanagotta sutta
Screen Shot 2018-08-06 at 11.38.09.png
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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cappuccino
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Re: Quick death is worse than torture?

Post by cappuccino » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:11 pm

robertk wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:06 am
There is no self for me.
whoever says this hasn't understood not self

TRobinson465
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Re: Quick death is worse than torture?

Post by TRobinson465 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:14 am

salayatananirodha wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:05 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:46 am
So I found an interesting passage in the vinaya.

It says:
On one occasion a monk went to a place of execution and said to the executioner, “Don’t torture him. Kill him with a single blow.” “All right, Venerable,” he said, and he killed him with a single blow. The monk became remorseful... “You have committed an offense entailing expulsion.”

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pj3/en/brahmali
Perhaps in my unenlightened mind i find it weird that a monk would have committed a parajika for this since I do not "truly" understand what happens at death or the value of human life. but it still seems weird. Almost any good willed or compassionate person would advise against torturing someone over quickly killing them. Yet the monk who did this was expelled.

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.

- MN 117
Why else would someone encourage death over life if they had the right view of this world, next world? Encouraging or having an intentional hand in death is a defeating offense, even describing death beneficially. It's always cruel and evil to kill, although the world has re-interpreted it. It's good that you note your mind in the beginning of your statements; mindfulness of mind to the degree of understanding 'there is mind' is of great fruit, of great benefit (see MN 10).
See chiggala sutta for the value of human life.
Yes i understand the value of human life. which is why euthaniasia even voluntary is something of wrong view. But in this case it wasn't kill instead of torture, it was kill him quickly instead of torturing him to death. that sorta confuses me even when taking into account the value of human existence.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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cappuccino
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Re: Quick death is worse than torture?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:21 am

no one has the authority to murder

under no circumstances should you murder

fools assume they have the authority to murder, under "right" circumstances

chownah
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Re: Quick death is worse than torture?

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:50 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:21 am
no one has the authority to murder

under no circumstances should you murder

fools assume they have the authority to murder, under "right" circumstances
Only fools think that there is "authority" to do anything.
This desperado might just as well be talking about "authority" instead of "badges".

This extends to all things....there is nothing which gives one authority to do anything.....
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Quick death is worse than torture?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:52 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:14 am

Yes i understand the value of human life. which is why euthaniasia even voluntary is something of wrong view. But in this case it wasn't kill instead of torture, it was kill him quickly instead of torturing him to death. that sorta confuses me even when taking into account the value of human existence.
Here's one way to look at it. Anyone causing the prisoner to be killed creates bad kamma. This is also the case when one tacitly endorses the death penalty, but merely disagrees over the means by which it is carried out. It would have been possible to say that the prisoner should not be killed at all, which then completely avoids the kamma associated with the endorsement of killing. Any killing would then have been the exclusive responsibility of the executioner and whoever ordered him to commit the deed.

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