What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 pm

What is the contact (Phasa)? Can we experience the contact?
Vedana (feeling) and Sanna (perception) follow the contact.
Can you experience contact if there is no feeling and perception?
When Buddha said "see only the seen" which one he is talking about?
Is it contact, feeling or perception?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by paul » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:09 pm

Food for thought:

The Blessed One said, "And what, monks, is the origination of the body? [1] From the origination of nutriment is the origination of the body. From the cessation of nutriment is the subsiding of the body.

"From the origination of contact is the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact is the subsiding of feeling.

"From the origination of name-&-form is the origination of the mind. From the cessation of name-&-form is the cessation of the mind.

"From the origination of attention is the origination of mental qualities. [2] From the cessation of attention is the subsiding of mental qualities.”—-SN 47:42

2 Mental qualities = dhammas. SN 46.51 discusses the ways in which inappropriate attention feeds such unskillful mental qualities as the hindrances, whereas appropriate attention feeds such skillful mental qualities as the factors for awakening.

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_anicca_
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by _anicca_ » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:22 am

"See only the seen": don't get caught in craving and clinging: your own personal narrative.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

chownah
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by chownah » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:44 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 pm
What is the contact (Phasa)? Can we experience the contact?
Vedana (feeling) and Sanna (perception) follow the contact.
Can you experience contact if there is no feeling and perception?
When Buddha said "see only the seen" which one he is talking about?
Is it contact, feeling or perception?
From https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html:
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."
Since contact is dependent on consciousness then it seems that it is not possible to delineate the difference among contact, feeling, and perception.....I guess....don't know for sure.
Also, for a more intuitive approach, isn't contact just the arising of feeling and perception?
Also, it might be good to ponder the appropriateness of the question: just what is it that is experienced anyway? I think that this question just leads one into the view of a delusional self....it is probably better to consider that experience arises and not try to see "things" as being experienced.
chownah

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one_awakening
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by one_awakening » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:29 am

I thought contact involved consciousness, one of the six sense bases and an object.
“You only lose what you cling to”

paul
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by paul » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:04 am

Contact is sense-impression:
phassa (fr. phusati, to touch): 'sense-impression', contact. The term samphassa is used in compounds, e.g. in the following: '"T'here are 6 classes of sense-impression: visual impression (cakkhu-samphassa), impressions of hearing, smelling, tasting, bodily (tactile) impression and mental impression" (M. 9). A twofold division occurs in D. 15: patigha (q.v.) -samphassa, impression by sensorial reaction', and adhivacana-samphassa, verbal (or conceptual, i.e. mental) impression'.
[…]
Being a key function in the mind's contact with the world of objects and being a potential source of defilements, sense-impression is an important subject for reflective insight contemplation as succinctly formulated in many verses of the Sn.: 736/7, 778, 851, 870/72, 923.---Buddhist Dictionary

chownah
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by chownah » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:33 am

one_awakening wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:29 am
I thought contact involved consciousness, one of the six sense bases and an object.
It does and that was what I was trying to say. When I said:
Since contact is dependent on consciousness then it seems that it is not possible to delineate the difference among contact, feeling, and perception.....I guess....don't know for sure.
....I could just as well said that "since contact involves consciousness....."...in fact maybe it would have been better if I had used "involves".......
chownah

Dinsdale
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:10 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 pm
What is the contact (Phasa)? Can we experience the contact?
Vedana (feeling) and Sanna (perception) follow the contact.
Can you experience contact if there is no feeling and perception?
When Buddha said "see only the seen" which one he is talking about?
Is it contact, feeling or perception?
As I understand it, vedana and sanna arise with vinnana - these three are described as "conjoined" in the suttas. Vinnana ( sense-consciousness ) arises in dependence upon the presence of sense-base and sense-object, eg ear-consciousness arises in dependence on ear ( ability to hear ) and sound.

There are different interpretations of "in the seen only the seen", I take it to mean guarding the senses.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Circle5
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by Circle5 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:50 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:54 pm
What is the contact (Phasa)? Can we experience the contact?
Vedana (feeling) and Sanna (perception) follow the contact.
Can you experience contact if there is no feeling and perception?
When Buddha said "see only the seen" which one he is talking about?
Is it contact, feeling or perception?
Yes, of course there can arise contact even if there is no feeling and perception. Feelings and perceptions are dependent upon contact, not the other way around.

Consider a car parking sensor. There are 2 elements: the car parking sensor and things that are perceived by the car parking sensor

In the case of living organisms, there are 3 elements: the eye, eye-sights and eye-consciousness. "The meeting of the 3 means contact". Because there is contact, there can arise feeling, volition and perception. In the case of a car, there is no contact and therefore the 3 aggregates of feeling, volition and perception do not arise.

3 of the 5 aggregates depend upon contact. If there would be no contact, these 3 aggregates would not exist either - not the other way around

SarathW
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by SarathW » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:43 am

The question is if we don't have the feeling and perception how do we know there is contact?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:35 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:43 am
The question is if we don't have the feeling and perception how do we know there is contact?
Are you of the view that eye consciousness is NOT conjoined with feeling and perception?....because if they are conjoined then it seems that a logical definition of "contact" might be "the arising of conscious feeling and perception."....which would render your question as being only theoretic in that the condition it describes could not happen.
chownah

justindesilva
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:40 am

SarathW wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:43 am
The question is if we don't have the feeling and perception how do we know there is contact?
This question can be undèstood by applying a blind person. The rays from an object ( an elephant) reaches the physical eye of the blind. As due to non sensititiveness of his eye, the rays are not significant and the elephant is not noticed as the signal (sanna) does not continue .Yet often a strong light may act differently on this blind man , as the strong light may reach the sensitive areas surpassing the weak areas. The signal of light reaching sensitive nerve areas, signals ( sanna) the brain which then activates the past memories ( manendriya) suggesting volition . ( phassa , vedana, sanna , sankara), and the next step of consciousness ( vinnana) takes place suggesting the contact of a light.
A deaf person does not hear as his physical ear is insensitive.Hear although the sound vibration contacts the ear, consciousness is not activated as the link , sanna ( insensitive ear drums) do not link the brain.

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Bundokji
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:58 am

Contact is a necessary condition for the arising of experience. , it is not experience in itself
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

justindesilva
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:45 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:58 am
Contact is a necessary condition for the arising of experience. , it is not experience in itself
:twothumbsup:
And I wish to add that the said experience is sankara. ( pl. correct me if I am wrong).

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Bundokji
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Re: What is the contact? Can we experience the contact?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:02 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:45 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:58 am
Contact is a necessary condition for the arising of experience. , it is not experience in itself
:twothumbsup:
And I wish to add that the said experience is sankara. ( pl. correct me if I am wrong).
From my understanding, it is yes and no, because describing it as sankhara is inferred hence equally sankhara
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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