Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

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Polar Bear
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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by Polar Bear » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:14 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:51 pm
i would think no based on this passage;
The Sixfold Base

48. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

49. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the sixfold base, the origin of the sixfold base, the cessation of the sixfold base, and the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base, he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

50. "And what is the sixfold base, what is the origin of the sixfold base, what is the cessation of the sixfold base, what is the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base? There are these six bases: the eye-base, the ear-base, the nose-base, the tongue-base, the body-base, the mind-base. With the arising of Name&Form there is the arising of the sixfold base. With the cessation of Name&Form there is the cessation of the sixfold base. The way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

51. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the sixfold base, the origin of the sixfold base, the cessation of the sixfold base, and the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."
“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”


“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
9. “And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? [...]
He turns his mind away from those states [436] and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’
So directing mind to Deathless means that by means of the Noble Eightfold Path the cessation of Mindbase is realized and Nibbana Attained.
I think we need to make the distinction between nibbana with a remainder of fuel and nibbana without remainder.
This was said by the Lord…
“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.
“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.
“These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”
These two Nibbāna-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.
Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland
I think the eightfold path referring to the cessation the six sense spheres is referring to nibbana without remainder of fuel. And I’m just gonna chuck a bunch of sutta quotes at you to suggest my point.
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones also feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?"

"For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it."

"In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Notice that there is a difference between cessation and escape. It is not cessation that is the escape from feelings but rather giving up passion.
"And what is the escape from feelings? The subduing of desire-passion for feelings, the abandoning of desire-passion for feelings: That is the escape from feelings.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The cessation of the six sense spheres occurs when the remaining fuel runs out:
“Bhikkhus, when one dwells contemplating danger in things that can be clung to, craving ceases. With the cessation of craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence … cessation of birth … aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.
“Suppose, bhikkhus, a great bonfire was burning, consuming ten, twenty, thirty, or forty loads of wood, and a man would not cast dry grass, dry cowdung, or dry wood into it from time to time. Thus, when the former supply of fuel is exhausted, that great bonfire, not being fed with any more fuel, lacking sustenance, would be extinguished. So too, when one lives contemplating danger in things that can be clung to, craving ceases…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”


https://suttacentral.net/sn12.52/en/bodhi
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: ‘What is the gratification, what is the danger, what is the escape in the case of the eye? What is the gratification, what is the danger, what is the escape in the case of the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind?’
“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on the eye: this is the gratification in the eye. That the eye is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this is the danger in the eye. The removal and abandonment of desire and lust for the eye: this is the escape from the eye.
“‘The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind: this is the gratification in the mind. That the mind is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this is the danger in the mind. The removal and abandonment of desire and lust for the mind: this is the escape from the mind.’
“So long, bhikkhus, as I did not directly know as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these six internal sense bases, I did not claim to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans. But when I directly knew all this as it really is, then I claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with … its devas and humans.
“The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation of mind; this is my last birth; now there is no more renewed existence.’”


https://suttacentral.net/sn35.13/en/bodhi
You might want to do a search on suttacentral for “gratification escape” and for origination escape” to see all those suttas. It seems to me that the suttas put more of a focus on removing craving than on having a cessation experience or more accurately non-experience.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:28 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:14 pm
I think the eightfold path referring to the cessation the six sense spheres is referring to nibbana without remainder of fuel. And I’m just gonna chuck a bunch of sutta quotes at you to suggest my point.
...
Yes you got it.
However there is another meaning for Nibbana as Deathless. Where that same peace is realized as path attainment, sorrowless state, signless concentration or cessation of perception and feeling and it is the same state that is realized by Parinibbana except that at Parinibbana there is nobody at all who can be said to be realizing it;
"Now, as long as I did not have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people. But when I did have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people.

"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.

"I had direct knowledge of feeling...

"I had direct knowledge of perception...

"I had direct knowledge of fabrications...

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness... of the origination of consciousness... of the cessation of consciousness... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.

"And what is form? The four great existents[1] and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"For any brahmans or contemplatives who by directly knowing form in this way, directly knowing the origination of form in this way, directly knowing the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of form in this way, are practicing for disenchantment — dispassion — cessation with regard to form, they are practicing rightly. Those who are practicing rightly are firmly based in this doctrine & discipline. And any brahmans or contemplatives who by directly knowing form in this way, directly knowing the origination of form in this way, directly knowing the cessation of form in this way, directly knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of form in this way, are — from disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, lack of clinging/sustenance with regard to form — released, they are well-released. Those who are well-released are fully accomplished. And with those who are fully accomplished, there is no cycle for the sake of describing them.

"And what is feeling? These six classes of feeling — feeling born of eye-contact, feeling born of ear-contact, feeling born of nose-contact, feeling born of tongue-contact, feeling born of body-contact, feeling born of intellect-contact: this is called feeling. From the origination of contact comes the origination of feeling. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of feeling...

"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...

"And what are fabrications? These six classes of intention — intention with regard to form, intention with regard to sound, intention with regard to smell, intention with regard to taste, intention with regard to tactile sensation, intention with regard to ideas: these are called fabrications. From the origination of contact comes the origination of fabrications. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of fabrications. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of fabrications...

"And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness — eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness: this is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
"There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist; the perception of liquid with regard to liquid... the perception of fire with regard to fire... the perception of wind with regard to wind... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of space with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of space... the perception of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness with regard to the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness... the perception of the sphere of nothingness with regard to the sphere of nothingness... the perception of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception with regard to the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception... the perception of this world with regard to this world... the next world with regard to the next world... and whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect: the perception of that has ceased to exist.

"Absorbed in this way, the excellent thoroughbred of a man is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:

'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is
dependent on which
you're absorbed.'"
The Buddha is said to be able to enter cessation thus for 7 days and 7 nights;
We now ask you, venerable Gotama: Who lives in greater pleasure: King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha or venerable Gotama?’

“‘In that case, Niganthas, I will question you in return. Answer as you like.

“What do you think: Can King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha — without moving his body, without uttering a word — dwell sensitive to unalloyed pleasure for seven days & nights?‘

“‘No, friend.”

“‘… for six days & nights… for five days & nights… for a day & a night?’

“‘No, friend.”

“‘Now, I — without moving my body, without uttering a word — can dwell sensitive to unalloyed pleasure for a day and a night… for two days & nights… for three… four… five… six… seven days & nights. So what do you think: That being the case, who dwells in greater pleasure: King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha or me?‘

“‘That being the case, venerable Gotama dwells in greater pleasure than King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha.'”

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahanama the Sakyan delighted in the Blessed One’s words.
That base is beyond time, akālika - timeless, appavatta - non-continuing, non-persisting.

The difference is that the aggregates do not arise again with attainment of the final breakup of the aggregates and final extinguishing of existence. Since the person dies at Parinibbana it cannot even be called a meditative attainment at that point because dead people don't meditate.

For example a person might set timer to meditate for 30 minutes and he might attain Path and be thus absorbed in supramundane jhana for 30 minutes. When emerging from the attainment he would have seen the end of the world and arising of the world and know the Unmade, he would not feel time and it is as if the cessation and arising of the world happens in a few instants, one kind of perception ceases, primary happiness, then normal perception arises a new.

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:08 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:52 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:24 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:06 pm
[...]
Therein what is the ideational-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational base; and the unconditioned element.
I think it is wrong to say that Unconditioned Element is cognized at the Ideation Base because what is said here is that the Unconditioned is the Ideation Base. It is not stated that Ideation Base is one thing and the Unconditioned Element is another.

I think this Abhidhamma statement probably points to that All phenomena are gaining footing in the Deathless too.

sry many edits, new material and difficult semantics.
Also the problem herein is that the translation Ideation makes it seem like it is to do with Ideas or Intellect. The word is dhammāyatanaṃ and thus a better translation is probably Phenomena Base. This would be in line with the AN.10.58 if one takes 9th enumeration to say that phenomena gain footing in the Deathless and it would not risk making it sound like the Thinking Base.

That is how i understand it anyway and it would be good if somebody can say something intelligent on the matter.
In particular this is relevant i think in regards to the unconditioned base;
... A being exists entirely in the world and both the world and the being are constructed and subject to change [evolving]. Thus a being is a construct which experiences the constructed. The constructed states occur in a system which facilitates the occurence of the constructed states, fascilitates existence of the world and experienced states. The constructed [dependently arisen by means of evolving] states that arise are to that extent states of the system. The system which fascilitates the manifestation of various states is in itself unchanging, being the same system all along the system is merely going from one state to another.

One can thus point out an unchanging constant in the changing.

In this way the system itself can be understood to be unchanging while the states of the system are changing, therefore one can say that the changing gains a footing in the unchanging. With the cessation of dependently arisen states of the system, the system is in the unmade state and the unmade state and the system are thus one and the same because Unmade state is not a state like the made state, it is the system itself without a state per se.

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:50 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:28 pm
except that at Parinibbana there is nobody at all who can be said to be realizing it
there is a conventional level of truth

thus, there is one realizing Parinirvana

therefore, Parinirvana is an everlasting state
“Life is anxiety”

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:59 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:50 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:28 pm
except that at Parinibbana there is nobody at all who can be said to be realizing it
there is a conventional level of truth

thus, there is one realizing Parinirvana

therefore, Parinirvana is an everlasting state
Sorry dead people don't meditate or realize Parinibbana.

We Buddhists say the Arhahant has attained Parinibbana.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:12 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:59 am
Sorry dead people don't meditate or realize Parinibbana.

rupa-loka
Beings in these planes enjoy varying degrees of jhanic bliss.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
“Life is anxiety”

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:14 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:12 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:59 am
Sorry dead people don't meditate or realize Parinibbana.

rupa-loka
Beings in these planes enjoy varying degrees of jhanic bliss.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
do you think the buddha is in parinibbana?

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:15 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:14 am
do you think the buddha is in parinibbana?

Buddha attained and did not lose Parinirvana
“Life is anxiety”

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:22 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:15 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:14 am
do you think the buddha is in parinibbana?

Buddha attained and did not lose Parinirvana
Could it be that the Nibbana lost the Buddha?
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:23 am

A fool can attend on a wise man even for a life time,
he will not understand the Dharma, like a spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
“Life is anxiety”

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:26 am

Though briefly one intelligent
might wait upon the wise,
quickly Dhamma he can sense
as tongue the taste of soup.
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:15 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:14 am
do you think the buddha is in parinibbana?

Buddha attained and did not lose Parinirvana
Does everybody get one of their own?
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Last edited by rightviewftw on Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:36 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:14 pm
I think the eightfold path referring to the cessation the six sense spheres is referring to nibbana without remainder of fuel. And I’m just gonna chuck a bunch of sutta quotes at you to suggest my point.
...
Yes you got it.
However there is another meaning for Nibbana as Deathless. Where that same peace is realized as path attainment, sorrowless state, signless concentration or cessation of perception and feeling and it is the same state that is realized by Parinibbana except that at Parinibbana there is nobody at all who can be said to be realizing it;
It's perhaps a small point, but parinibbana is used in the suttas for nibbana both with and without remainder. It seems to be common to mix the terminology...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14143&start=40#p209545


Mike

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:44 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:36 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:28 pm
Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:14 pm
I think the eightfold path referring to the cessation the six sense spheres is referring to nibbana without remainder of fuel. And I’m just gonna chuck a bunch of sutta quotes at you to suggest my point.
...
Yes you got it.
However there is another meaning for Nibbana as Deathless. Where that same peace is realized as path attainment, sorrowless state, signless concentration or cessation of perception and feeling and it is the same state that is realized by Parinibbana except that at Parinibbana there is nobody at all who can be said to be realizing it;
It's perhaps a small point, but parinibbana is used in the suttas for nibbana both with and without remainder. It seems to be common to mix the terminology...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14143&start=40#p209545


Mike
furthermore it is used as a designation of Deathless attainment for non-Arahants;
9. “And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, [...] He turns his mind away from [...] states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’
even stream-enterers as a matter of fact

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Polar Bear
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:01 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:08 am
The system which fascilitates the manifestation of various states is in itself unchanging, being the same system all along the system is merely going from one state to another.

One can thus point out an unchanging constant in the changing.

In this way the system itself can be understood to be unchanging while the states of the system are changing, therefore one can say that the changing gains a footing in the unchanging. With the cessation of dependently arisen states of the system, the system is in the unmade state and the unmade state and the system are thus one and the same because Unmade state is not a state like the made state, it is the system itself without a state per se.
This sounds more like Vedanta than Buddhism to me.

“If you say that ‘when the six fields of contact have faded away and ceased with nothing left over, something else exists’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. If you say that ‘nothing else exists’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. If you say that ‘both something else and nothing else exist’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. If you say that ‘neither something else nor nothing else exist’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. The scope of the six fields of contact extends as far as the scope of proliferation. The scope of proliferation extends as far as the scope of the six fields of contact. When the six fields of contact fade away and cease with nothing left over, proliferation stops and is stilled.”

https://suttacentral.net/an4.174/en/sujato
“He who has no in-dwelling sense desires,” said venerable Todeyya,
“he in whom no craving is found,
he who crossed beyond doubts,
what kind of freedom is there for him?”

“He who has no in-dwelling sense desires,” said the Gracious One,
“he in whom no craving is found,
he who has crossed beyond doubts,
there is no further freedom for him.”

https://suttacentral.net/snp5.10/en/anandajoti
I think we should be careful not to posit some further thing such as an unchanging system or world-soul or whathaveyou since that will just be another idea of an ultimate to attach to.
“Having nothing, no attachment, this is the island with nothing beyond,
this is called Nibbāna, I say, the end of old age and death.

https://suttacentral.net/snp5.11/en/anandajoti
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:11 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:01 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:08 am
The system which fascilitates the manifestation of various states is in itself unchanging, being the same system all along the system is merely going from one state to another.

One can thus point out an unchanging constant in the changing.

In this way the system itself can be understood to be unchanging while the states of the system are changing, therefore one can say that the changing gains a footing in the unchanging. With the cessation of dependently arisen states of the system, the system is in the unmade state and the unmade state and the system are thus one and the same because Unmade state is not a state like the made state, it is the system itself without a state per se.
This sounds more like Vedanta than Buddhism to me.

“If you say that ‘when the six fields of contact have faded away and ceased with nothing left over, something else exists’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. If you say that ‘nothing else exists’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. If you say that ‘both something else and nothing else exist’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. If you say that ‘neither something else nor nothing else exist’, you’re proliferating the unproliferated. The scope of the six fields of contact extends as far as the scope of proliferation. The scope of proliferation extends as far as the scope of the six fields of contact. When the six fields of contact fade away and cease with nothing left over, proliferation stops and is stilled.”

https://suttacentral.net/an4.174/en/sujato
Exists does not apply to the unmade state. It is like saying how can there be existence where nothing exist. It can be answered as a similar question was answered;
'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
What is know to the world as existence is the meaning of the word if one was to explain the unmade to exist it would be something like this;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Of course here one needs to understand how elements work and what exactly that stuff means.

Here a quote from another member of the forum pertaining to this;
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32327&start=90#p480455
If we are to take that interpretation that "nibbana" is a field of reality beyond "mentality" and "materiality", one can still assume, that, yes, there is no experience, feelings, perceptions, cognition, etc (that is, all which is known to us at the moment), but, there is "something else entirely".
i don't like to endorse other people's interpretations in it's entirety but i approve mostly of those answers he gave and i think he is quite wise to that extent.

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