Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base? Nope it is not.

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:38 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:07 pm
Find me a passage saying Nibbana is experinced at mind base.
In the exposition of the āyatanas in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka's Vibhaṅga the unconditioned element is included in dhammāyatana:
Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaappaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.

Therein what is the ideational-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational base; and the unconditioned element.

What then could cognize it if not manāyatana? To propose another āyatana would be to make Nibbāna into a visible object, sound, taste, odour or tangible. To propose an agent of cognition outside the āyatanas would be to posit another "all".

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/vb2
I am not proposing an agent of cognition outside of ayatanas but i am saying that the 8FNP is for means of cessation of cognition, cessation of mind-sense base and non arising of contact.
The way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
2. Analysis Of The Sense-bases
2.1. Analysis According To The Discourses

The twelve sense-bases are: The eye sense-base, visible sense-base, ear sense-base, audible sense-base, nose sense-base, odorous sense-base, tongue sense-base, sapid sense-base, body sense-base, tangible sense-base, mind sense-base, ideational sense-base.

The eye is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; visible (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things. The ear is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; audible (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things. The nose is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; odorous (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things. The tongue is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; sapid (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things. The body is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; tangible (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things. The mind is impermanent, suffering, without soul, a changeable thing; ideational (objects) are impermanent, suffering, without soul, changeable things.

(Here Ends) Analysis According To The Discourses
...
2.2. Analysis According To Abhidhamma
...
Therein what is mind sense-base? Mind sense-base by way of singlefold division: Is associated with contact.
Mind sense-base by way of twofold division: Is accompanied by root; is not accompanied by root.
Path attainment is realized by cessation of contact.
There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those seeking a new existence. What four? They are physical food as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact as the second; mental volition as the third; and consciousness as the fourth. With the arising of craving there is the arising of nutriment. With the cessation of craving there is the cessation of nutriment. The way leading to the cessation of nutriment is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.
By cessation of contact there is the cessation of Feeling
With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of feeling. The way leading to the cessation of feeling is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
With the cessation of Sense-Bases there is cessation of Contact;
There are these six classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact. With the arising of the sixfold base there is the arising of contact. With the cessation of the sixfold base there is the cessation of contact. The way leading to the cessation of contact is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration
Cessation of contact is for attainment of the Deathless.

When the superlative man is absorbed independently of contact, there is no contact arising nor are there any sense bases because the path to such absorbtion is path to cessation. Therefore that which is primary happiness is not felt per se, is not felt by a being basicaly;
'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"
"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:17 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:59 pm

cessation isn't in Buddhism, as in Advaita

Ramana Maharshi said, you should destroy yourself; Buddha doesn't go this far

Buddha said, only cessation of stress, this is half way cessation

what remains is Nirvana

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:24 pm

Therein what is the ideational-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational base; and the unconditioned element.
I think it is wrong to say that Unconditioned Element is cognized at the Ideation Base because what is said here is that the Unconditioned is the Ideation Base. It is not stated that Ideation Base is one thing and the Unconditioned Element is another.

I think this Abhidhamma statement probably points to that All phenomena are gaining footing in the Deathless too.

sry many edits, new material and difficult semantics.
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:29 pm

the unconditioned element requires faith, why?

because this is something not yet seen, or known

similar to believing in God, or being unable to believe in God

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base? Now that would be heresy

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:27 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:09 pm
Aloka wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:06 pm
Hi rightviewftw,

Its possible that having a look at chapter 7 "Attending to the Deathless" in the book "The Island - An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on Nibbanna" by Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro might be helpful.

https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/451-the-island

With kind regards,

Aloka :anjali:
i prefer using The Tipitaka
Since that book is a collection of sutta passages, you might find it helpful. That chapter, in fact, discusses such suttas as:
“Rooted in interest are all things;
born of attention are all things;
arising from contact are all things;
converging on feelings are all things;
headed by concentration are all things;
dominated by mindfulness are all things;
surmounted by wisdom are all things;
yeilding deliverance as their essence are all things;
merging in the Deathless are all things;
terminating in Nibbæna are all things.”
~ A 10.58
:heart:
Mike

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:30 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:03 pm
perhaps you can find it or be silent :jumping:
Friend. Nibbana appears to be an "ayatana". To quote:
Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ

There is that sphere/base, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”

https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/anandajoti
There are six external ayatana. To quote:
There are the sense fields of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.

Rūpāyatanaṃ, saddāyatanaṃ, gandhāyatanaṃ, rasāyatanaṃ, phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṃ, dhammāyatanaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
If the 6th ayatana was only "ideas" or "thoughts" ("sankhara"; "papanca"), why would it be called "dhamma"? :shrug:

The 4th tetrad of Anapanasati is about contemplation of "Dhamma" and includes Nibbana as an object.
or observing fading away,

virāgānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘virāgānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

or observing cessation,

nirodhānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘nirodhānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

or observing letting go

paṭinissaggānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘paṭinissaggānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
This seems to show NIbbana is included in "dhamma" as an "ayatana" and as "dhamma" is the phrase: "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta".

:heart:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:30 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:03 pm
perhaps you can find it or be silent :jumping:
Friend. Nibbana appears to be an "ayatana". To quote:
Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ

There is that sphere/base, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”

https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/anandajoti
There are six external ayatana. To quote:
There are the sense fields of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and thoughts.

Rūpāyatanaṃ, saddāyatanaṃ, gandhāyatanaṃ, rasāyatanaṃ, phoṭṭhabbāyatanaṃ, dhammāyatanaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
If the 6th ayatana was only "ideas" or "thoughts" ("sankhara"; "papanca"), why would it be called "dhamma"? :shrug:

The 4th tetrad of Anapanasati is about contemplation of "Dhamma" and includes Nibbana as an object.
or observing fading away,

virāgānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘virāgānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

or observing cessation,

nirodhānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘nirodhānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

or observing letting go

paṭinissaggānupassī assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘paṭinissaggānupassī passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
This seems to show NIbbana is included in "dhamma" as an "ayatana" and as "dhamma" is the phrase: "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta".

:heart:
still not experienced at mind base
:alien:
:rolleye:

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:33 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:24 pm
I think it is wrong to say that Unconditioned Element is cognized at the Ideation Base ...
But is not the "Ideation Base". This idea of "Ideation Base" is Ideation (Papanca). :lol: Its only THANISSARO that translates as "Ideation Base". Is this forum called "Thanissaro Wheel". :roll:
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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:36 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:33 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:24 pm
I think it is wrong to say that Unconditioned Element is cognized at the Ideation Base ...
But is not the "Ideation Base". This idea of "Ideation Base" is Ideation (Papanca). :lol:
:alien:
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:30 pm
Friend. Nibbana appears to be an "ayatana". To quote:
Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ

There is that sphere/base, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:36 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 pm
still not experienced at mind base
:alien:
:rolleye:
Its experienced at the mind base because the Buddha experienced it in the here & now. The Buddha said there are only six consciousness and six bases to know/experience anything. Now you appear to venturing into the Mahayana idea of EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESS. :thinking:
"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. [3] But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:40 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:36 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 pm
still not experienced at mind base
:alien:
:rolleye:
Its experienced at the mind base because the Buddha experienced it in the here & now. The Buddha said there are only six consciousness and six bases to know/experience anything. Now you appear to venturing into the Mahayana idea of EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESS. :thinking:
"Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'

"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. [3] But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
5. Doctrines of Nibbāna Here and Now (Diṭṭhadhammanibbānavāda): Views 58–62

93. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of Nibbāna here and now and who, on five grounds, proclaim Nibbāna here and now for an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

94. "Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine or view: 'When this self, good sir, furnished and supplied with the five strands of sense pleasures, revels in them — at this point the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

95. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because, good sir, sense pleasures are impermanent, suffering, subject to change, and through their change and transformation there arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. But when the self, quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, enters and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by initial and sustained thought and contains the rapture and happiness born of seclusion — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

96. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? Because that jhāna contains initial and sustained thought; therefore it is declared to be gross. But when, with the subsiding of initial and sustained thought, the self enters and abides in the second jhāna, which is accompanied by internal confidence and unification of mind, is free from initial and sustained thought, and contains the rapture and happiness born of concentration — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way others proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

97. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because of the mental exhilaration connected with rapture that exists there. But when, with the fading away of rapture, one abides in equanimity, mindful and clearly comprehending, and still experiencing happiness with the body, enters and abides in the third jhāna, so that the ariyans announce: "He abides happily, in equanimity and mindfulness" — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

98. "To him another says: 'There is, good sir, such a self as you assert. That I do not deny. But it is not at that point that the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now. What is the reason? It is declared to be gross because a mental concern, 'Happiness,' exists there. But when, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of previous joy and grief, one enters and abides in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure and pain and contains purification of mindfulness through equanimity — at this point, good sir, the self attains supreme Nibbāna here and now.' In this way some proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being.

"This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands... and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.

99. "It is on these five grounds, bhikkhus, that these recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of Nibbāna here and now proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being. Whatever recluses or brahmins proclaim supreme Nibbāna here and now for an existent being, all of them do so on these five grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.

"This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands... and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.

100. "It is on these forty-four grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins who are speculators about the future and hold settled views about the future assert various conceptual theorems referring to the future. Whatever recluses or brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the future, hold settled views about the future, and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the future, all of them do so on these forty-four grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.

"This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands... and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.

101. "It is on these sixty-two grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins who are speculators about the past, speculators about the future, and speculators about the past and the future together, who hold settled views about the past and the future, assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future.

102. "Whatever recluses or brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the past or speculators about the future or speculators about the past and the future together, hold settled views about the past and the future, and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future, all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.

103. "This, bhikkhus, the Tathāgata understands. And he understands: 'These standpoints, thus assumed and thus misapprehended, lead to such a future destination, to such a state in the world beyond.' He understands as well what transcends this, yet even that understanding he does not misapprehend. And because he is free from misapprehension, he has realized within himself the state of perfect peace. Having understood as they really are the origin and the passing away of feelings, their satisfaction, their unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them, the Tathāgata, bhikkhus, is emancipated through non-clinging.

104. "These are those dhammas, bhikkhus, that are deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible only to the wise, which the Tathāgata, having realized for himself with direct knowledge, propounds to others; and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.
:alien:
fake sutta?
:alien:
:rolleye:

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base? Nope it is not.

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:42 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:07 pm
Find me a passage saying Nibbana is experinced at mind base.
In the exposition of the āyatanas in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka's Vibhaṅga the unconditioned element is included in dhammāyatana:
Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaappaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.

Therein what is the ideational-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational base; and the unconditioned element.

What then could cognize it if not manāyatana? To propose another āyatana would be to make Nibbāna into a visible object, sound, taste, odour or tangible. To propose an agent of cognition outside the āyatanas would be to posit another "all".

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/vb2
:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:42 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:27 pm
...
Further to The Island, it's interesting to contrast the Amaro/Passano comments towards the end of Chapter 7, P129 of the PDF:
When one reflects on the language the Buddha uses to express this principle
of merging with the Deathless and meshes it with his statements about the All, one can
see that the image of the relationship of habitual sense perceptions (the All) to the
Deathless is more that of coming out of a dream and merging with waking reality
(recognizing the coil of rope after fearing the snake in the grass), rather than a river
merging with a sea of identical substance.
With Bhikkhu K Ñāṇananda's Nibbana Sermon 21:
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
We have pointed out that the dichotomy between consciousness and name-
and-form is the saṃsāric vortex. Let us refresh our memory of this vortex by
alluding to a quotation from the Udāna which we brought up on an earlier
occasion.
Chinnaṃ vaṭṭaṃ na vattati,
es' ev' anto dukkhassa.
The whirlpool cut off whirls no more.
This, even this, is suffering's end."
[https://suttacentral.net/ud7.2]
...
This, in fact, is a reference to the arahant. The vortex is between
consciousness and name-and-form. By letting go of name-and-form, and
realizing the state of a non-manifestative consciousness, the arahant has, in this
very life, realized the cessation of existence, which amounts to a cessation of
suffering as well. Though he continues to live on, he does not grasp any of those
aggregates tenaciously. His consciousness does not get attached to name-and-
form. That is why it is said that the vortex turns no more.
...
If, for instance, a vortex in the ocean comes to cease, can one ask where the
vortex has gone? It will be like asking where the extinguished fire has gone. One
might say that the vortex has 'joined' the ocean. But that, too, would not be a
proper statement to make. From the very outset what in fact was there was the
great ocean, so one cannot say that the vortex has gone somewhere, nor can one
say that it is not gone. It is also incorrect to say that it has joined the ocean. A
cessation of a vortex gives rise to such a problematic situation.
So is this state
called kevalī. What, in short, does it amount to? The vortex has now become thegreat ocean itself. That is the significance of the comparison of the emancipated
one to the great ocean.

The commentators do not seem to have paid sufficient attention to the
implications of this simile. But when one thinks of the relation between the
vortex and the ocean, it is as if the arahant has become one with the ocean. But
this is only a turn of speech.
:heart:
Mike

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:52 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:24 pm
Therein what is the ideational-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities, that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational base; and the unconditioned element.
I think it is wrong to say that Unconditioned Element is cognized at the Ideation Base because what is said here is that the Unconditioned is the Ideation Base. It is not stated that Ideation Base is one thing and the Unconditioned Element is another.

I think this Abhidhamma statement probably points to that All phenomena are gaining footing in the Deathless too.

sry many edits, new material and difficult semantics.
Also the problem herein is that the translation Ideation makes it seem like it is to do with Ideas or Intellect. The word is dhammāyatanaṃ and thus a better translation is probably Phenomena Base. This would be in line with the AN.10.58 if one takes 9th enumeration to say that phenomena gain footing in the Deathless and it would not risk making it sound like the Thinking Base.

That is how i understand it anyway and it would be good if somebody can say something intelligent on the matter.

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:14 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:42 pm
Further to The Island, it's interesting to contrast the Amaro/Passano comments towards the end of Chapter 7, P129 of the PDF:
When one reflects on the language the Buddha uses to express this principle
of merging with the Deathless and meshes it with his statements about the All, one can
see that the image of the relationship of habitual sense perceptions (the All) to the
Deathless is more that of coming out of a dream and merging with waking reality
(recognizing the coil of rope after fearing the snake in the grass), rather than a river
merging with a sea of identical substance.
yes this is basically the problem with saying that things merge into nibbana it makes it sound like something interacts with the Unmade as a river merging with the ocean. World being described as a mirage the waking up from a dream is definitely more correct.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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