Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

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rightviewftw
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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base? Nope it is not.

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:47 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:22 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 am
In that sense Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not experienced [at mind-sense base] because mind-sense base is associated with contact [namarupa] whereas Nibbana[that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind...] is not associated with contact [namarupa]
Therein what is mind sense-base? Mind sense-base by way of singlefold division: Is associated with contact.
In Nibbāna there is no nāma-rūpa, but in the mind, which perceives it, there is nāma-rūpa. E.g.: there are no trees in the ocean, but while looking at it you might be sitting on the branch of a tree.
It is not at all clear what you mean by Nibbana is perceived. Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by Nibbana. However if you are referring to the Dimension/Base where elements do not gain a footing then there is no name and form there and therefore no perception. I will demonstrate, note the color parts;

Nibbana as in
that dimension[base], monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support.
Is not perceived because it is not populated by beings and there is no namarupa on which consciousness depends and thus also no contact, feeling nor perception etc;
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing
?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:

"Consciousness without feature"[1],
without end,
luminous all around
:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
1. Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23)
Also note that unestablished in regards to Parinibbana seeSN22.87;
“That, bhikkhus, is Mara the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the clansman Vakkali, wondering: ‘Where now has the consciousness of the clansman Vakkali been established?’ However, bhikkhus, with consciousness unestablished, the clansman Vakkali has attained final Nibbāna.”
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn22.87
"...With the cessation of Name&Form there is the cessation of the sixfold base. The way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base is just this Noble Eightfold Path;https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by xofz » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:08 pm

It is true, Nibbana is not any form of consciousness at all. The mind goes a little deeper than the brain (where the sixth consciousness resides). Please don't tell me we are arguing on a Buddhist forum about whether the mind-only teaching is a consciousness-only teaching. In the brain is God, which gives rise to just about every self-view there is. Looking for Buddha in any form of consciousness (including the "mind" caused by the brain) is a surefire way to miss a point-blank shot. The Buddha exists without any body at all -- to the extent consciousness satisfies one enough to continue in this body and, on death, seek another body, is to the extent one is bound by suffering.
becoming aware!

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base? Nope it is not.

Post by atipattoh » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:40 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:47 pm
It is not at all clear what ___ mean by Nibbana is perceived.
It would probably means Nibbana is experience thru perception base on mind_base repository, by means of inference.

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base? Nope it is not.

Post by Volovsky » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:56 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:47 pm
It is not at all clear what you mean by Nibbana is perceived.
40“Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that (1) he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; (2) of water in relation to water; (3) of fire in relation to fire; (4) of air in relation to air; (5) of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; (6) of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; (7) of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; (8) of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; (9) of this world in relation to this world; (10) of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient?”

41“He could, Ānanda.”

42“But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?” [8]

43“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.
AN, X.6

Also note that unestablished in regards to Parinibbana seeSN22.87;
That is different. It is attainment of Nibbāna after death of an arahant. I was talking about experiencing Nibbāna during the life time in phala samāpatti.

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Re: Is Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base? Nope it is not.

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:17 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:56 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:47 pm
It is not at all clear what you mean by Nibbana is perceived.
40“Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that (1) he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; (2) of water in relation to water; (3) of fire in relation to fire; (4) of air in relation to air; (5) of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; (6) of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; (7) of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; (8) of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; (9) of this world in relation to this world; (10) of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient?”

41“He could, Ānanda.”

42“But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?” [8]

43“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.
AN, X.6

Also note that unestablished in regards to Parinibbana seeSN22.87;
That is different. It is attainment of Nibbāna after death of an arahant. I was talking about experiencing Nibbāna during the life time in phala samāpatti.
I see what you mean.
The base where elements do not gain a footing is the same base tho, the base realized by cessation in case of the phala samapatti is not a different the base realizee by the parinibbana, the main difference there is that there is no emergence from parinibbana and life force for one who attained it is exhausted. It is paradoxical tho because when talking about that unmade as pleasure where nothing is felt or as perception where there is no perception or a consciousness unestablished/non-manifesting/signless etc it is important to realize the paradox and that ther is no feeling dependent on contact and so there is no perception dependent on contact and that the feeling or perception would be described as a feeling in whatever terms it is a possibility rather than a feeling dependent on sense bases and contact. Thus it is not a feeling that arises or a perception that arises, it is not someone's feeling or someone's perception, it is not a perception of x but rather it is a singleness, the singleness can be said to have a quality of perception, a quality of freedom and be itself explained as primary happiness.

It is selfevident that it is the same base that is realized by parinibbana also from the fact that the Tathagata proclaimed it, the unestablished, before his own Parinibbana.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by Zom » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:01 pm

40“Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that (1) he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; (2) of water in relation to water; (3) of fire in relation to fire; (4) of air in relation to air; (5) of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; (6) of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; (7) of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; (8) of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; (9) of this world in relation to this world; (10) of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient?”

41“He could, Ānanda.”

42“But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?” [8]

43“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.
I think this text should be understood in line with the next one, where Ven. Sariputta says, that nibbana is not perceived, but "perceived" - retrospectively, as recollection of cessation of existence.

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:23 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:01 pm
40“Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that (1) he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; (2) of water in relation to water; (3) of fire in relation to fire; (4) of air in relation to air; (5) of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; (6) of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; (7) of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; (8) of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; (9) of this world in relation to this world; (10) of the other world in relation to the other world, but he would still be percipient?”

41“He could, Ānanda.”

42“But how, Bhante, could he obtain such a state of concentration?” [8]

43“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.
I think this text should be understood in line with the next one, where Ven. Sariputta says, that nibbana is not perceived, but "perceived" - retrospectively, as recollection of cessation of existence.
Here is another one
"Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"
There is no evidence here for your theory?

In regards to recollection of peace the memory of the peace is not the Base where namarupa does't gain a footing, the memory is just that a memory, the memory is not the base. Even after emerging from the attainment a person is unable to imagine the base where namarupa doesn't gain a footing as it actually is, in all it's glory. Even in case of lower attainments if a person was to attain a perception of a nimitta or some light, the recollection of it is not the same as the concentration attainment of the nimitta or light. If a person could do that then he would be attaining primary happiness as he was recollecting it but as it actually is the recollection of primary happiness is not the attainment of primary happiness.

Therefore during the recollection of peace the perception there is not not-associated with namarupa. Therefore i don't think it can be rightfully referred to as a concentration attainment.

I would personally be surprised if the case with perception at that time is not the same as is with feeling;
Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
"It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

"Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'"
I imagine that if asked "what is perception where nothing is perceived" the answer is similar as in "just that is the perception there"
Meaning that it is the perception of resolution of all phenomena, Nibbana.

Therefore i imagine that when the Tathagata proclaims that he is able to;
"'Now, I — without moving my body, without uttering a word — can dwell sensitive to unalloyed pleasure for a day and a night... for two days & nights... for three... four... five... six... seven days & nights.
On being asked if he is not feeling during that time [seven days & seven nights], he might say that he is not without feeling.
On being asked if he is not percepient during that time [seven days & seven nights], he might say that he is not not-percepient at that time.

On being asked howcome i imagine that he would say "a Tathagata describes a feeling and perception whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained".
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 6 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by cappuccino » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:39 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:01 pm
where Ven. Sariputta says, that nibbana is not perceived, but "perceived" retrospectively
not retrospectively
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32
“Life is anxiety”

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by Zom » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:51 pm

There is no evidence here for your theory?
This is not my theory - this is how Commentary explains it. And it makes sense, sinse if nibbana were "something", there would be 7th kind of contact, 7th type of feeling, and 7th type of consiousness. But there are none.

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:51 pm
There is no evidence here for your theory?
This is not my theory - this is how Commentary explains it. And it makes sense, sinse if nibbana were "something", there would be 7th kind of contact, 7th type of feeling, and 7th type of consiousness. But there are none.
Well what is the evidence for this theory? The unmade base is not "something" because things are created, it being the unmade makes it not a thing, unborn, unmade, if there was no unmade then there would be no escape from the made.
"So it is, O King, unconditioned is Nirvana, not made by anything. Of Nirvana one cannot say that it is produced, or unproduced, or that it should be produced; that it is past, or present, or future; or that one can become aware of it by the eye, or the ear, or the nose, or the tongue, or the body."

"In that case, Nagasena, you indicate Nirvana as a dharma which is not, and Nirvana does not exist."

"Nirvana is something which is recognizable by the mind. A holy disciple, who has followed the right road, sees Nirvana with a mind which is pure, sublime, straight, unimpeded and disinterested."

"But what then is that Nirvana like? Give me a simile, and convince me by arguments. For a dharma which exists can surely be illustrated by a simile!"

"Is there, Great King, something called wind?"

"Yes, there is such a thing."

"Please, will Your Majesty show me the wind, its colour and shape, and whether it is thin or thick, long or short?"

"One cannot point to the wind like that for the wind does not lend itself to being grasped with the hands, or to being untouched. But nevertheless there is such a thing called 'wind'."

"If one cannot point to the wind, one might concluded that there is no wind at all."

"But I know, Nagasena, that there is wind, I am quite convincted of it, in spite of the fact that I cannot point it out."

"Just so, Your Majesty, there is Nirvana, but one cannot point to Nirvana, either by its colour or its shape."

"Very good, Nagasena. Clear is the simile, convincing is the argument. So it is, and so I accept it: There is a Nirvana."
The born, become, produced, made, fabricated, impermanent, fabricated of aging & death, a nest of illnesses, perishing, come-into-being through nourishment and the guide [that is craving] — is unfit for delight. The escape from that is calm, constant, a sphere beyond conjecture, unborn, unproduced, the sorrowless, stainless state, the cessation of stressful qualities, stilling-of-fabrications bliss.
it is also beyond time...

It definitely is a reality in whatever terms reality can be referred to, proclaimed as the highest bliss and a freedom from Suffering. It is beyond conjecture just because it's existence cannot be postulated in conventional terms because words like existence and a thing all have very particular meanings.

Therefore when you say
" if nibbana were "something", there would be 7th kind of contact, 7th type of feeling, and 7th type of consiousness. But there are none. "
The answer to that is "Nibbana is existence without contact" which is a paradoxical statement but guess what so is "pleasure where nothing is felt"

There is no word to explain that mode of being because it is not something that occurs or something that people have any experience with for the most part, it is inconceivable and does not occur in this world so obviously it is contradictory to what is known as existence in the world.

Also it is literally the highest happiness, the most profound taste of freedom which can be recollected. There arises longing for it and essentially that mode of existence is good enough to prefer it over and give up all potential forms of "mundane existence" even the heavenly pleasures.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by atipattoh » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:43 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 pm
"Nibbana is existence without contact" which is a paradoxical statement but guess what so is "pleasure where nothing is felt"
If there is a 32nd "realm", that is a "place" of existance without contact, and it happened that the Buddha forget to mention it, do you think that He will be less competent than you in that respect?

A chair is an existence without contact, it feels nothing and that is "pleasurable", being "something" like a chair, is nibbana?

Btw, do not get confused with the result of 'overcoming the cause' from 'attainments immersion'.

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:01 am

atipattoh wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:43 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 pm
"Nibbana is existence without contact" which is a paradoxical statement but guess what so is "pleasure where nothing is felt"
If there is a 32nd "realm", that is a "place" of existance without contact, and it happened that the Buddha forget to mention it, do you think that He will be less competent than you in that respect?

A chair is an existence without contact, it feels nothing and that is "pleasurable", being "something" like a chair, is nibbana?

Btw, do not get confused with the result of 'overcoming the cause' from 'attainments immersion'.
You are missing the point, it is not a place or a realm. It is the Unconditioned, a singleness meaning that whatever quality it has the quality is not one thing and the nibbana another.
A chair is an existence without contact, it feels nothing and that is "pleasurable", being "something" like a chair, is nibbana?
A chair is an existence without contact?

Let's see;

Seeing a chair is based on contact,
Smelling a chair is based on contact,
Thinking of a chair is based on contact,
Touching a chair is based on contact,
Tasting a chair is based on contact,
Hearing a chair is based on contact,

If you want to say that existence of a chair is outside of the senses then you are contradicting the Sabba Sutta (among others);
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Thus it looks like you have a flawed interpretation of what it is your are talking of when you talk of contact and existence in the context of the Dhamma.

Also how is feeling nothing pleasurable? If Nibbana was not the highest pleasure then the disenchantment with feelings would not be possible. Trying to convince yourself that it is better to feel nothing would be impossible. The teaching is not;
Give up happiness and feel nothing.
The teaching is;
"If by giving up a lesser happiness, one may behold a greater one, let the wise man give up the lesser happiness in consideration of the greater happiness." - Pakinnakavagga : 290
Thus it is to give up a feeling, to become disenchanted with feeling for the cessation of craving, with cessation of craving there is cessation of becoming, attaining final cessation for the realization of;
... a sphere beyond conjecture, unborn, unproduced, the sorrowless, stainless state, the cessation of stressful qualities, stilling-of-fabrications bliss.
When you take a compounded concept postulated thus "Existence without contact" you can not just take it to be "existence..." that is taking words out of context. Thus saying "Rvftw saying nibbana is a realm of existence because he says nibbana exists" is misrepresenting me.

Furthermore;
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
If you were correct in your interpretation then this verse would read;
There is no such dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And nowhere, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.

But it doesnt. Therefore this applies;
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by Zom » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:03 am

The answer to that is "Nibbana is existence without contact" which is a paradoxical statement but guess what so is "pleasure where nothing is felt"
Sorry, nibbana is not existence. Saying so is papanca - imagining something out of nothing. As for the second statement - absense of dukkha is sukha. This is how it should be understood, especially when Buddha said he doesn't say that "pleasure" should be always "pleasurable". In case of nibbana it is not.

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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by atipattoh » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:28 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:01 am
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
You did not read what i wrote on don't get confused part. That description is for the attainments on reverse mode. If you try to understand this part thru words, not going to go anywhere.


Anyway, base on your understanding, how would you phrase your question adding to this
"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata exists: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"

"...no..."

"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"

"...no..."

"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"

"...no..."

"Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?"

"...no..."
In case you are reading 3rd & 4th question in term of 2 dimensional perspective; i read it differently, the 3 question is asking within comprehensible dimensions concept, the 4 th cover the incomprehensible dimemsions concept. I am really really really looking forward to a question that goes beyond this.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Nibbana experienced at mind-sense base... NOT

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:39 am

Zom wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:03 am
The answer to that is "Nibbana is existence without contact" which is a paradoxical statement but guess what so is "pleasure where nothing is felt"
Sorry, nibbana is not existence. Saying so is papanca - imagining something out of nothing. As for the second statement - absense of dukkha is sukha. This is how it should be understood, especially when Buddha said he doesn't say that "pleasure" should be always "pleasurable". In case of nibbana it is not.
Again you are misrepresenting me, i do not say "Nibbana is existence" i was very careful to explain that "Nibbana is existence where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress."

Which relates entirely different meaning than mere "Nibbana is existence" taken out of context
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
You are contradicting the Buddha because he therein says that "It is"
is
/ɪz/
third person singular present of be.
be
/biː/
verb
verb: be; 3rd person present: is; 3rd person present: are; 3rd person present: am; past tense: was; past tense: were; gerund or present participle: being; past participle: been

1.
exist.
"there are no easy answers"
synonyms: exist, have being, have existence; More
live, be alive, have life, breathe, draw breath, be extant, be viable
"there was this boy who lived next door"
be present.
"there were no curtains around the showers"
synonyms: be present, be around, be available, be near, be nearby, be at handvana with a mind which is pure, sublime, straight, unimpeded and disinterested."
It is therefore as a matter of fact entirely reasonable to say "There exists monks a dimension/base where...." or "Nibbana is existence without contact"
which is a way to postulate a concept with Unmade as it's referent.

Contradicting Nagasena
"But what then is that Nirvana like? Give me a simile, and convince me by arguments. For a dharma which exists can surely be illustrated by a simile!"

"Is there, Great King, something called wind?"

"Yes, there is such a thing."

"Please, will Your Majesty show me the wind, its colour and shape, and whether it is thin or thick, long or short?"

"One cannot point to the wind like that for the wind does not lend itself to being grasped with the hands, or to being untouched. But nevertheless there is such a thing called 'wind'."

"If one cannot point to the wind, one might concluded that there is no wind at all."

"But I know, Nagasena, that there is wind, I am quite convincted of it, in spite of the fact that I cannot point it out."

"Just so, Your Majesty, there is Nirvana, but one cannot point to Nirvana, either by its colour or its shape."

"Very good, Nagasena. Clear is the simile, convincing is the argument. So it is, and so I accept it: There is a Nirvana."
Contradicting Buddha again;
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.
If you were correct this passage makes no sense as it is and it would read;
There is, monks, no unborn - no unbecome - no unmade - no Unfabricated. There is only the escape from the born — become — made"

Which is obvious nonsense because "Escape" is "an escape from" just as much as it is "an Escape to" one would not be escaping if there was nothing to "escape to". IE if a prison was all that there was and could ever be, there would be no concept of escaping prison" it would be a fantasy, impossible and not connected with reality.

Which is exactly the point that the Tathagata is making by saying;
If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned.
A nothing can not be discerned as an escape from.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:08 am, edited 7 times in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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