Animals and kamma

[TRobinson465]

Okay, so i have a question.


Does anyone here know if animals are subject to kamma? Like if a human kills a lot of animals, he can be reborn a hell being or have bad things happen to him in future lives and whatnot. But what if an animal kills an animal? Do Lions get bad kamma each time they kill prey or something?

[justindesilva]

Okay, so i have a question.


Does anyone here know if animals are subject to kamma? Like if a human kills a lot of animals, he can be reborn a hell being or have bad things happen to him in future lives and whatnot. But what if an animal kills an animal? Do Lions get bad kamma each time they kill prey or something?

Well when queried about eating flesh by a human the answer is that lord budda did not prohibit eating flesh or meat. It is also said that if an animal is killed not by self for food and if we are not aware that the kill is not meant for our food then we can eat the meat. Here the lion means killing the animal for food. The same kamma should apply for the lion.
However the lion is born to eat meat. And the intention of the lion is satisfying the hunger. It is no different from an eskimo fishing to satisfy hunger.
( I may be wrong but that is the logic)

[salayatananirodha]

Intention is kamma. Does an animal intend?

[TRobinson465]

Okay, so i have a question.


Does anyone here know if animals are subject to kamma? Like if a human kills a lot of animals, he can be reborn a hell being or have bad things happen to him in future lives and whatnot. But what if an animal kills an animal? Do Lions get bad kamma each time they kill prey or something?

Well when queried about eating flesh by a human the answer is that lord budda did not prohibit eating flesh or meat. It is also said that if an animal is killed not by self for food and if we are not aware that the kill is not meant for our food then we can eat the meat. Here the lion means killing the animal for food. The same kamma should apply for the lion.
However the lion is born to eat meat. And the intention of the lion is satisfying the hunger. It is no different from an eskimo fishing to satisfy hunger.
( I may be wrong but that is the logic)

I would think so too, but seems kinda unfair. Lions hunt on instinct, and have sufficiently less free will than humans. Its sorta hard to grasp. If thats the case wouldnt hell beings just be like 90% animals who were carnivores in previous existences?

[markandeya]

Kamma can just mean action, all results of actions will depend on motivation. Gotam Buddha said to speculate or try to see the whole scope of Kamma is not possible.

There is a story of a great compassionate king who was known to protect all of his subjects. One day pigeon came to him because the fox was going to eat him. The king saw the pigeon was in distress and gave him shelter. Then the fox came and spoke to the king that unless he would eat the pigeon then he would die, because that is the only way he can get food. So the king who was giving shelter and protection to all his subjects was caught in a dilemma, one to save the pigeons life and then to save the foxes life who was dependent on eating he pigeon. Finally he offered the flesh from his own arm the same weight as the pigeon to satisfy both.

Even then that great act of compassion would be a temporary solution.

Animal kingdom is mostly innocent and just act according to their nature.

Personally I think its wrong to judge anyone or anything by kamma thinking somehow we are judge and jury of all around us.

[DooDoot]

Animal kingdom is mostly innocent and just act according to their nature.

The Pali suttas appear to say relatively few animals can realise the Four Noble Truths and take birth in the human or godly realms but most animals are reborn in hell, animal and ghost realm. Thus it appears animals are subject to kamma.

… the sentient beings who die as animals and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as animals and are reborn in hell, or the animal realm, or the ghost realm are many.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.120-122/en/sujato

“… the sentient beings who die as animals and are reborn as gods are few, while those who die as animals and are reborn in hell, or the animal realm, or the ghost realm are many.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.123-125/en/sujato

Why is that?

It’s because they haven’t seen the four noble truths.

What four?

The noble truths of suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.131/en/sujato

[markandeya]

Doodoot

Gotama Buddha is talking in context of bhavachakra, not outside of human experience.

[chownah]

Kamma can just mean action, all results of actions will depend on motivation.

I think the buddha's teachings disagree with you when you say that kamma can just mean action.
It seems that the buddha defined kamma as being intention....see the excerpt from AN 6.63 (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... tml#part-5) which I put below:

[5] "'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

You can see that the section on kamma starts with a list of things to be known. The first item on the list is that kamma should be known and the first paragraph under the list addresses the first item on the list and is shown in the excerpt. That short paragraph is the entirety of what is provided so that we might know kamma for what it is.....that is to say, it is intention.

The paragraphs which follow each cover additional items on the list...namely cause,diversity, result, and cessation and practice for cessation.

So it is clear the "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." is the entire description from which we should know kamma.

chownah

[markandeya]

Thank you Chownah

Intention can also be an action in subtle form, there are causes leading up to final action, which are interlaced.

So even if you want to limit and stick with the one definition of kamma as intention, the usual intention of most animals is just for basic survival. So i cant see how they can incur any bad or good kamma, and they are just part of some universal evolution system. A lion kills for food, not usually for fun or sport, or to put into a shop for selling and so on.

So where is the bad intention, it is just his action for survival based on needs.

[Polar Bear]

There is this sutta:

Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi

Sounds like bad kamma to me.

And to show that nether world includes the animal realm:

“That one-eyed turtle would poke its neck through the hole in that yoke sooner than a fool who has fallen to the underworld would be reborn as a human being, I say.
“Khippataraṃ kho so, bhikkhave, kāṇo kacchapo vassasatassa vassasatassa accayena sakiṃ sakiṃ ummujjanto amusmiṃ ekacchiggaḷe yuge gīvaṃ paveseyya, na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sakiṃ vinipātagatena bālena manussattaṃ vadāmi.

Vinipātagatena means to go to the netherworld:

Vinipāta [fr. vi+nipāteti] ruin, destruction; a place of suffering, state of punishment, syn. with apāya

https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... rchhws=yes

Apāya [Sk. apāya, fr. apa + i, cp. apeti] "going away" viz. -- 1. separation, loss Dh 211 (piya˚ = viyoga DhA iii.276). -- 2. loss (of property) D iii.181, 182; A ii. 166; iv.283; J iii.387 (atth˚). -- 3. leakage, out flow (of water) D i.74; A ii.166; iv.287. -- 4. lapse, falling away (in conduct) D i.100. -- 5. a transient state of loss and woe after death. Four such states are specified purgatory (niraya), rebirth as an animal, or as a ghost, or as a Titan (Asura).

https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... rchhws=yes

So it seems that animals can make negative kamma as their life is characterized my mutual devouring, preying on the weak, and the lack of ability to make merit.

[TRobinson465]

The Pali suttas appear to say relatively few animals can realise the Four Noble Truths and take birth in the human or godly realms but most animals are reborn in hell, animal and ghost realm. Thus it appears animals are subject to kamma.

… the sentient beings who die as animals and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as animals and are reborn in hell, or the animal realm, or the ghost realm are many.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.120-122/en/sujato

“… the sentient beings who die as animals and are reborn as gods are few, while those who die as animals and are reborn in hell, or the animal realm, or the ghost realm are many.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.123-125/en/sujato

Why is that?

It’s because they haven’t seen the four noble truths.

What four?

The noble truths of suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.131/en/sujato

There is this sutta:

Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi

Sounds like bad kamma to me.

And to show that nether world includes the animal realm:

“That one-eyed turtle would poke its neck through the hole in that yoke sooner than a fool who has fallen to the underworld would be reborn as a human being, I say.
“Khippataraṃ kho so, bhikkhave, kāṇo kacchapo vassasatassa vassasatassa accayena sakiṃ sakiṃ ummujjanto amusmiṃ ekacchiggaḷe yuge gīvaṃ paveseyya, na tvevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, sakiṃ vinipātagatena bālena manussattaṃ vadāmi.

Vinipātagatena means to go to the netherworld:

Vinipāta [fr. vi+nipāteti] ruin, destruction; a place of suffering, state of punishment, syn. with apāya

https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... rchhws=yes

Apāya [Sk. apāya, fr. apa + i, cp. apeti] "going away" viz. -- 1. separation, loss Dh 211 (piya˚ = viyoga DhA iii.276). -- 2. loss (of property) D iii.181, 182; A ii. 166; iv.283; J iii.387 (atth˚). -- 3. leakage, out flow (of water) D i.74; A ii.166; iv.287. -- 4. lapse, falling away (in conduct) D i.100. -- 5. a transient state of loss and woe after death. Four such states are specified purgatory (niraya), rebirth as an animal, or as a ghost, or as a Titan (Asura).

https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... rchhws=yes

So it seems that animals can make negative kamma as their life is characterized my mutual devouring, preying on the weak, and the lack of ability to make merit.

Thanks for your responses guys! I think these two posts gave me the answer i was looking for.

That really sucks for carnivores tho. This means you'd be much better off being born a herbivore or a scavenger. A human existence is certainly not an opportunity to squander.

[manas]

If animals can make bad kamma, it logically follows they must also be able to make good kamma (for example, when a family dog is being watchful and protective of the family members, or raises the alarm when a stranger approaches, it's being of service to those humans). If there's kamma in killing and devouring, there's also kamma in being watchful with the intention to protect, no? Dolphins have been known to save drowning human beings, and bring them safely to shore; I can't see what this could be, other than an act of compassion and helpfulness, surely there is good kamma in that?

[TRobinson465]

If animals can make bad kamma, it logically follows they must also be able to make good kamma (for example, when a family dog is being watchful and protective of the family members, or raises the alarm when a stranger approaches, it's being of service to those humans). If there's kamma in killing and devouring, there's also kamma in being watchful with the intention to protect, no?

Yes animals can certainly create good kamma. As we can see by the numerous jataka tales where the bodhisatta was born an animal. But most wild animals would not really have this oppurtunity. and if the animal is a carnivore they spend their whole lives killing just to survive.

[DooDoot]

Gotama Buddha is talking in context of bhavachakra, not outside of human experience.

I never heard of "bhavachakra" before. Can you quote a Pali sutta that explains what you are saying? Or do you mean the animal behavior of non-Buddhist wanderers or the animal behavior of the sexual promiscuous?

Now on that occasion the wanderers of other persuasions had come together in a gathering and were sitting, discussing many kinds of bestial/animal topics (tiracchānakathaṃ), making a great noise & racket. They saw Vajjiya Mahita the householder coming from afar, and on seeing him, hushed one another: "Be quiet, good sirs. Don't make any noise. Here comes Vajjiya Mahita the householder, a disciple of Gotama the contemplative. He is one of those disciples of Gotama the contemplative, clad in white, who lives in Savatthi. These people are fond of quietude and speak in praise of quietude. Maybe, if he perceives our group as quiet, he will consider it worth his while to come our way." So the wanderers fell silent.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world... the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html

There is this sutta:

Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi

So what of the "homo sapiens" who have no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity; who engage in mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak?

[dharmacorps]

The animal world is characterized by survival and they have many fewer choices than us humans do. It is hard to say if a animal kills because it intends to kill, or because it intends to eat. I am not sure some animals even know what killing is. They certainly can create good and bad kamma, but as for the kamma related to their killing, I am not sure we can know. Nor is it something that helps us humans other than to resolve to practice for stream entry so those realms are cut off for our future lives