What is Nirodha?

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:24 am

annihilation is suffering, Nirvana has no suffering

some understand annihilation, rather than Nirvana

justindesilva
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:58 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:39 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:28 pm
yes the world ends, so to speak, it's not annihilated, destroyed

words are useful, but misleading

Nirvana is the end, but is also called endless
It seems like this only applies to a sub-set of texts in your bubble of a world magically floating in unreality
We must be able to read the hidden meaning between lines. Here in a sense of modern education , we and all around us are a manifestation if energy in a eternally moving cosmos. Paticca samuppada explains the process ( here and now of beings) in the earth as a human realm. We are also speaking about a momentarily changing energy ( anitya) but not annihilation. End of the world means a change of a form of energy in to another form for a dynamic equilibrium. Eg: Apo tejo vayo patavi are all chemico physico qualities with which we and tge earth are formed of. Again nirvana is not an end but a stability of the mind ( nama) energy.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:09 am
Here a more technical analysis;
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."

Verse:
Duve imā cakkhumatā pakāsitā,
Nibbānadhātū anissitena tādinā;
Ekā hi dhātu idha diṭṭhadhammikā,
Saupādisesā bhavanettisaṅkhayā;
Anupādisesā pana samparāyikā,
Yamhi nirujjhanti bhavāni sabbaso.

These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable, and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Ye etadaññāya padaṃ asaṅkhataṃ,
Vimuttacittā bhavanettisaṅkhayā;
Te dhammasārādhigamā khaye ratā,
Pahaṃsu te sabbabhavāni tādino”ti

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
Dear friend

In your post, you highlighted the following words: "having no residue for the future, Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease"; as though all of these words pertain exclusively to the 'Nibbana-element with no residue left'.

Yet the other Nibbana is also refers the "destruction" ("saṅkhayā") of "bhava" or "bhavanetti". "Bhavanetti" appears to be defined as follows:
Rādha, any desire, greed [lust], relishing [delight] and craving for form; and any attraction [engagement], grasping [clinging], mental resolve [mental standpoints], insistence [adherences] and underlying tendencies —

Rūpe kho, rādha, yo chando yo rāgo yā nandī yā taṇhā ye upayupādānā cetaso adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā—

this is called the attachment [conduit] to being reborn [existence].

ayaṃ vuccati bhavanetti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn23.3/en/sujato [Bodhi]
My question to you, friend, is are the two "bhava" ("being") referred to above the same thing? Or are they different?

Thank you :)

pegembara
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by pegembara » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:09 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:24 am
annihilation is suffering, Nirvana has no suffering

some understand annihilation, rather than Nirvana
Of course, annihilation is dukkha. Liberation is the realisation that there is no self/atta to get annihilated. The "downside" is that nothing lives forever. That is the middle way - not eternalism or annihilism
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by pegembara on Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:13 am

pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:09 am
Liberation is the realisation that there is no self/atta to get annihilated.
no self is a self doctrine

liberation is beyond self doctrines

pegembara
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by pegembara » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:22 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:13 am
pegembara wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:09 am
Liberation is the realisation that there is no self/atta to get annihilated.
no self is a self doctrine

liberation is beyond self doctrines
Liberation isn't a doctrine.
"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated.
"This is, because that is. When this ceases to be, that ceases to be"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:25 am

annihilation cannot apply to what isn't self

therefore annihilation cannot be
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:40 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:09 am
For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
What is the source of this quote? Were the enlarged words amended? The Pali is: "sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sīti bhavissanti". "Vedayitā" appears to mean "felt".

chownah
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by chownah » Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:57 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:40 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:09 am
For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
What is the source of this quote? Were the enlarged words amended? The Pali is: "sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sīti bhavissanti". "Vedayitā" appears to mean "felt".
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .irel.html
This was said by the Lord...

"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."
This excerpt is followed with a poem which I have not brought.
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:37 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:09 am
all this is experience
chownah wrote:all that is experienced
Thanks Chownah. However, the quotes are different.

It appears to be a core dhamma practise for nirodha is to not delight in feelings, as follows:
vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā

All dhamma (path factors) converge upon feelings.

All dhamma (path factors) have feeling as their meeting place.

AN 10.58
To one experiencing feeling (vediyamānassa) I declare, 'This is stress.' I declare, 'This is the origination of stress.' I declare, 'This is the cessation of stress.' I declare, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' (Thanissaro)

Now it is for one who feels that I proclaim: ‘This is suffering,’ and ‘This is the origin of suffering,’ and ‘This is the cessation of suffering,’ and ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ (Bodhi)

It’s for one who feels that I declare: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. (Sujato)

AN 3.61
Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being...

MN 38
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.

If they feel a painful feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

Dukkhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.

If they feel a neutral feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.

Adukkhamasukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.

So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;

If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.

dukkhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;

If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached.

adukkhamasukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti.

Feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’

So kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti, jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti,

They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’

‘kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ jīvitapariyādānā idheva sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sītībhavissantī’ti pajānāti.

Suppose an oil lamp depended on oil and a wick to burn.

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhu, telañca paṭicca vaṭṭiñca paṭicca telappadīpo jhāyati;

As the oil and the wick are used up, it would be extinguished due to lack of fuel.

tasseva telassa ca vaṭṭiyā ca pariyādānā aññassa ca anupahārā anāhāro nibbāyati;

In the same way, feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’

evameva kho, bhikkhu, kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti, jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti,

They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’

‘kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ jīvitapariyādānā idheva sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sītībhavissantī’ti pajānāti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:26 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:03 am
Never seen any suttas that support the idea of "discriminative"; let alone inherently ignorant.
The "vi" prefix in vinnana means discriminative, or dual. What do you think is meant by cessation of vinnana in dependent origination?
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:03 am
I think enough quote were posted showing consciousness can function with ignorance or, alternately, function with wisdom.
I disagree. It is citta which takes on various qualities, not vinnnana. In the suttas vinnana is the basic function of awareness, ie sense-consciousness.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:03 am
However, citta does not appear to be something inherently defiled either.
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Actually this supports what I'm saying. Citta can be defiled by the taints, which means it can take on various qualities, or be in different states. See the third frame of the Satipatthana Sutta.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:30 am

Returning to the OP, is there a problem with translating nirodha as "cessation" or "no further arising"? It does appear to be what the suttas describe.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

justindesilva
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:14 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:30 am
Returning to the OP, is there a problem with translating nirodha as "cessation" or "no further arising"? It does appear to be what the suttas describe.
That is why I proposed the word ' disentangle' in place of nirodha.

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by auto » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:55 pm

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:58 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:39 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:28 pm
yes the world ends, so to speak, it's not annihilated, destroyed

words are useful, but misleading

Nirvana is the end, but is also called endless
It seems like this only applies to a sub-set of texts in your bubble of a world magically floating in unreality
We must be able to read the hidden meaning between lines. Here in a sense of modern education , we and all around us are a manifestation if energy in a eternally moving cosmos. Paticca samuppada explains the process ( here and now of beings) in the earth as a human realm. We are also speaking about a momentarily changing energy ( anitya) but not annihilation. End of the world means a change of a form of energy in to another form for a dynamic equilibrium. Eg: Apo tejo vayo patavi are all chemico physico qualities with which we and tge earth are formed of. Again nirvana is not an end but a stability of the mind ( nama) energy.
nice,
head and body are separated by sleep. If we percieve something through senses, what we see is behind a sleep wall. And i think i still confuse body as tactile organ.

Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:21 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:14 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:30 am
Returning to the OP, is there a problem with translating nirodha as "cessation" or "no further arising"? It does appear to be what the suttas describe.
That is why I proposed the word ' disentangle' in place of nirodha.
But as I explained previously, "disentangle" doesn't make sense when you look at what the suttas actually describe.

I don't see a problem with "cessation" or "no further arising", so I was asking why some seem to find it unsatisfactory.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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