What is Nirodha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:41 pm

Just as space is not produced, does not age, does not suffer
death, does not pass out of existence, does not come into
existence, cannot be forcibly handled, cannot be carried away by
thieves, rests on nothing, is the pathway of birds, presents no
obstacles, is endless, – so also Nibbæna is not produced, does not
age, does not suffer death, does not pass out of existence, does
not come into existence, cannot be forcibly handled, cannot be
carried away by thieves, rests on nothing, is the pathway of the
Noble, presents no obstacles, is endless.
~ Miln 315-323
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Life is anxiety”

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:02 pm

Please could I remind members that posts should be either neutral or civil in tone? Posts containing ad hominem abuse will be removed, and so will posts that simply reproduce gobbets of suttas without any explanation as to why they are relevant to the thread. This might be a challenge for those affecting an aphoristic style, but the choice is theirs.

pegembara
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by pegembara » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:55 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:59 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:44 pm
At the same time, what good would be the end of suffering if it meant total annihilation? Only people who hate themselves or hate all experience would go for it.
pegembara wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:08 am
Hate is a bit too strong word to use.
One gone to the far shore
without clinging
without effluent
his task completed,
welcomes the ending of life,
as if freed from a place of execution.
Adhimutta
So Ven Adhimutta was one of those who hated life experiences. At the end of life, he was freed and went to a better place instead of being annihilated. What's the point of annnihilation? :thinking:

Depends on how you see nibbida. Is this a sense of "revulsion" or just being "fed up or disenchanted"?
So there you are, happily reading the primary texts of early Buddhism in order to better understand the essential teachings of the Buddha. You get to the part that talks about a person practicing in accordance with the dhamma—knowing things directly as they really are and seeing what is impermanent as impermanent with right view. Your head is nodding in affirmation, “Yeah, that’s me all right.” Then all of a sudden you get to the next sentence: “Therefore, one should abide in the utter disgust for the aggregates” (Woodward’s translation).

https://www.lionsroar.com/dharma-dictionary-nibbida/
Also what happens when an arahant dies?
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:07 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:38 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am
I don't think ... i'm not convinced there is such a thing as "ignorant consciousness".
It appears written plainly in the suttas.
When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Sujato)

When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises.. (Bodhi)

To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Thanissaro)

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato
... the consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance... (Thanissaro)

.... The consciousness of sentient beings—hindered by ignorance... (Sujato)

... Avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ... viññāṇaṃ

AN 3.76
.... Consciousness is burning.... Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

SN 35.28
I don't think these quotes actually support the idea of an "ignorant consciousness" as opposed to a "wise consciousness". Unless the argument is that vinnana is inherently ignorant, because it is discriminative - that might make sense in the context of dependent origination.
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:11 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:57 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:42 am
It seems obvious consciousness that arises dependent upon a sense organ is not the same as a consciousness that arises dependent upon ignorance.
I don't think it's obvious at all. In the suttas vinnana is described in terms of sense-consciousness, it's a functional awareness which arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object. So I'm not convinced there is such a thing as "ignorant consciousness".
I think that ignorance is a thought or mental construct (about self) and so is a mental object....so if ignorance, the mind, and mind consciousness are all three present then all the rest happens....I guess....don't know for sure......so.....then it would not be "ignorant consciousness" rather it would be mind consciousness arising upon the mental object of self (aka "ignorance")....
chonwah
I think that ignorance is a sankhara, since it is a view. But in the suttas vinnana looks like basic awareness, and not something which takes on qualities like ignorance or wisdom or whatever. It is citta which takes on qualities, as for example in the third frame of the Satipatthana Sutta.
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:16 am

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:32 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:42 am
It seems obvious consciousness that arises dependent upon a sense organ is not the same as a consciousness that arises dependent upon ignorance.
I don't think it's obvious at all. In the suttas vinnana is described in terms of sense-consciousness, it's a functional awareness which arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object. So I'm not convinced there is such a thing as "ignorant consciousness".
May I introduce the word " disentangle" as the translation for nirodha. The meaning here arises as suitable because our perceptions are entangled with tanha, and greed and by freeing our perceptions from tanha , upadana ( greed) will not arise . This is freeing the mind and unconditioning the conditions in DO.
The problem I see with this idea is that in reverse order, dependent origination shows one nidana ceasing when the previous nidana ceases - so it's difficult to see how "disentangle" would work.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:03 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:07 am
I don't think these quotes actually support the idea of an "ignorant consciousness"...
The quotes appear very plain & straightforward. I think the quotes warrant more consideration that a mere "I don't think"...
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:07 am
Unless the argument is that vinnana is inherently ignorant, because it is discriminative
Never seen any suttas that support the idea of "discriminative"; let alone inherently ignorant. Most Pali terms probably derive from Sanskrit however this does not necessarily mean such terms are used in the same way in the Pali suttas as used in (Hindu or Brahman) Sanskrit. I think enough quote were posted showing consciousness can function with ignorance or, alternately, function with wisdom.
Discernment (wisdom) & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns.

MN 43
Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within.

SN 22.53
:alien:
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:11 am
But in the suttas vinnana looks like basic awareness
I imagine each of the five aggregates have their "basic" forms, as described in SN 22.48. However, this does not mean each aggregate can be polluted by asava & defilements.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:11 am
It is citta which takes on qualities, as for example in the third frame of the Satipatthana Sutta.
Certainly citta appears to be the primary depository of ignorance but a defiled citta would certainly appear to create a defiled consciousness; as described in the suttas:
When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Sujato)

When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises.. (Bodhi)

To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Thanissaro)

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;


https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato
However, citta does not appear to be something inherently defiled either.
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

auto
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:38 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Cessation of becoming
"There are some contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'There is no total cessation of becoming.' Some contemplatives & brahmans, speaking in direct opposition to those contemplatives & brahmans, say this: 'There is total cessation of becoming.' What do you think, householders? Don't these contemplatives & brahmans speak in direct opposition to each other?"
"Yes, lord."
"With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming" — I haven't seen that. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming" — I haven't known that. If I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take one side and declare, "Only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless," that would not be fitting for me. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the perception-made devas of no form. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, it is possible that I will be totally unbound in the here-&-now. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on passion, borders on fettering, borders on relishing, borders on grasping, borders on clinging. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on non-passion, borders on non-fettering, borders on non-relishing, borders on non-grasping, borders on non-clinging.' Reflecting thus, he practices for disenchantment toward becomings, for dispassion toward becomings, and for the cessation of becomings.
If haven't known total cessation of becoming then
total cessation of becoming as a bet holds better possible outcomes, if that statement is true. If that is true then it can result in total unboundedness in the 'here and now'.

auto
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:45 pm

DO YOU GUYS THINK THERE IS ANNIHILATION OF THE HERE AND NOW PERSON WHO TYPES HERE?

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:00 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:45 pm
DO YOU GUYS THINK THERE IS ANNIHILATION OF THE HERE AND NOW PERSON WHO TYPES HERE?
you wont be able to pin down existence of such a person.
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
"What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is consciousness constant or inconstant?

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

auto
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:04 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:00 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:45 pm
DO YOU GUYS THINK THERE IS ANNIHILATION OF THE HERE AND NOW PERSON WHO TYPES HERE?
you wont be able to pin down existence of such a person.
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
"What do you think, Anuradha: Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"Is consciousness constant or inconstant?

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it proper to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."
I can pinpoint, thats the reason i tell there is a self. If you can't tell then for you there are these 4 positions.

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:21 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:04 pm
I can pinpoint, thats the reason i tell there is a self. If you can't tell then for you there are these 4 positions.
sigh...
I will leave it to ya'll to imagine what Ven. Anuruddha would say had this man named Auto jumped in at the end of the conversation with such a proclamation.

I would ask you to explain the exact reason for postulating the existence of a self but i will spare you the sorrow and grief for it has been proclaimed;
Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All(see sabba sutta), I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

auto
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by auto » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:45 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:21 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:04 pm
I can pinpoint, thats the reason i tell there is a self. If you can't tell then for you there are these 4 positions.
sigh...
I will leave it to ya'll to imagine what Ven. Anuruddha would say had this man named Auto jumped in at the end of the conversation with such a proclamation.

I would ask you to explain the exact reason for postulating the existence of a self but i will spare you the sorrow and grief for it has been proclaimed;
Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All(see sabba sutta), I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief.
..
"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."

If you listen boring music, you want to go away do something enticing, you need capture yourself wanting to abandon the activity, if you notice it once you don't abandon, there then comes second time or wave what tries to knock you out of that boring activity, noticing that Then:

third time you are noticing your own will of holding to it. And then noticing that, you will attain certain type of function or concentration when you do it then it stops stress.
That stress is you have no idea why you holding to it or what should you do or should you abandon. The right way will liberate you from that stressful confusion.

This is you cessate outflows..You can just sit and if you can do it 1 hours good for you but you need notice relevant things.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:50 pm

pegembara wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:55 am
Also what happens when an arahant dies?

"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

Instead of :
will be extinguished.
“Life is anxiety”

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:09 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:50 pm
pegembara wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:55 am
Also what happens when an arahant dies?

"All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here."

Instead of :
will be extinguished.
Here a more technical analysis;
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."

Verse:
These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable, and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.


Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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