What is Nirodha?

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Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:42 am
It seems obvious consciousness that arises dependent upon a sense organ is not the same as a consciousness that arises dependent upon ignorance.
I don't think it's obvious at all. In the suttas vinnana is described in terms of sense-consciousness, it's a functional awareness which arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object. So I'm not convinced there is such a thing as "ignorant consciousness".
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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:38 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am
I don't think ... i'm not convinced there is such a thing as "ignorant consciousness".
It appears written plainly in the suttas.
When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Sujato)

When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, craving arises.. (Bodhi)

To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. (Thanissaro)

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato
... the consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance... (Thanissaro)

.... The consciousness of sentient beings—hindered by ignorance... (Sujato)

... Avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ... viññāṇaṃ

AN 3.76
.... Consciousness is burning.... Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

SN 35.28
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justindesilva
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:32 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:42 am
It seems obvious consciousness that arises dependent upon a sense organ is not the same as a consciousness that arises dependent upon ignorance.
I don't think it's obvious at all. In the suttas vinnana is described in terms of sense-consciousness, it's a functional awareness which arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object. So I'm not convinced there is such a thing as "ignorant consciousness".
May I introduce the word " disentangle" as the translation for nirodha. The meaning here arises as suitable because our perceptions are entangled with tanha, and greed and by freeing our perceptions from tanha , upadana ( greed) will not arise . This is freeing the mind and unconditioning the conditions in DO.

chownah
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:57 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:46 am
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:42 am
It seems obvious consciousness that arises dependent upon a sense organ is not the same as a consciousness that arises dependent upon ignorance.
I don't think it's obvious at all. In the suttas vinnana is described in terms of sense-consciousness, it's a functional awareness which arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object. So I'm not convinced there is such a thing as "ignorant consciousness".
I think that ignorance is a thought or mental construct (about self) and so is a mental object....so if ignorance, the mind, and mind consciousness are all three present then all the rest happens....I guess....don't know for sure......so.....then it would not be "ignorant consciousness" rather it would be mind consciousness arising upon the mental object of self (aka "ignorance")....
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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:59 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:44 pm
At the same time, what good would be the end of suffering if it meant total annihilation? Only people who hate themselves or hate all experience would go for it.
pegembara wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:08 am
Hate is a bit too strong word to use.
One gone to the far shore
without clinging
without effluent
his task completed,
welcomes the ending of life,
as if freed from a place of execution.
Adhimutta

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:02 pm

The arising of Sense Impressions depends on four elements and form derived from the four elements as well as feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention. The variety of sense-impression is due to variety of elements.

Sense impressions are of six kinds and the six kinds of medium facilitate the arising of sense-impressions which can be referred to as sense-consciousness; the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium: These are called the six sense media.

Now a sense-impression, can be demonstrated to depend on the eye and on forms cognizable via the eye;

If there was the Eye but no Form to see, Sense-Impression would not arise
If there was were Forms but no Eye, Sense-Impression would not arise

Thus the existence of Eye is postulated, thus the existence of Form cognizable by the Eye is postulated.
One does not equal another and the Sense-Impression doesn't equal either or both taken together but Sense-Impression depends on Eye and Forms.
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
The existence of Eye & Forms cognizable via the Eye does not guarantee the arising of Sense-Impression, Sense Impressions do not arise without attention, with attention they do arise. So when there is Attention directed to Eye & Forms, then there arises Consciousness at the Eye, thus we have Eye-Consciousness. The Eye-Consciousness is not the Eye, The Eye-Consciousness is not the Form, The Eye-Consciousness is not the Intention.

With the cessation of requisite condition for the existence of the four elements as well as feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention; there is the cessation [non-existence] of the four elements as well as feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention. With the non-existence of the four elements as well as feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention; there is the non-existence of the six sense-mediums; the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. When the six-sense mediums do not exist Sense-Impressions do not arise and there is the non-existence of Consciousness as previously postulated.

With the cessation of Consciousness there is the cessation of of the four elements as well as feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention.
With the cessation of of the four elements as well as feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention; there is the cessation of Consciousness.

"From the origination of fermentation comes the origination of ignorance. From the cessation of fermentation comes the cessation of ignorance.

With fading away of ignorance there is the fading away of fermentations; the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance.

Ignorance is particularly important;
Itivuttaka:
The Section of the Twos
40. Knowledge
...
verse;
Whatever bad bourns there are
In this world and hereafter,
All are rooted in ignorance,
Constructed by desire and greed.

Since one of evil desires
Is shameless and disrespectful,
From that evil flows forth
And he goes to a state of misery.

Thus by discarding desire and greed,
Along with ignorance as well,
A bhikkhu arouses knowledge
And abandons all bad bourns.

Discernment counters Ignorance;
"And what is heedfulness? There is the case where a monk guards his mind with regard to fermentations and mental qualities accompanied by fermentations. When his mind is guarded with regard to fermentations and mental qualities accompanied by fermentations, the faculty of conviction goes to the culmination of its development. The faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment goes to the culmination of its development.
"And what is the faculty of discernment? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. He discerns, as it has come to be: 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is called the faculty of discernment.
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
Ignorance about the compounded likened to darkness;
"There is, monks, an inter-cosmic[1] void, an unrestrained darkness, a pitch-black darkness, where even the light of the sun & moon — so mighty, so powerful — doesn't reach."

When this was said, one of the monks said to the Blessed One, "Wow, what a great darkness! What a really great darkness! Is there any darkness greater & more frightening than that?"

"There is, monk, a darkness greater & more frightening than that."

"And which darkness, lord, is greater & more frightening than that?"

"Any brahmans or contemplatives who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': They revel in (thought-) fabrications leading to birth; they revel in fabrications leading to aging; they revel in fabrications leading to death; they revel in fabrications leading to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Reveling in fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they fabricate fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Fabricating fabrications leading to birth... aging... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, they drop into the darkness of birth. They drop into the darkness of aging... the darkness of death... darkness of sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. They are not totally released from birth, aging, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. They are not totally released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
Thus with the cessation of ignorance all Ill is brought to an end;
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing: There the stars don't shine, the sun isn't visible. There the moon doesn't appear. There darkness is not found. And when a sage, a brahman through sagacity, has realized [this] for himself, then from form & formless, from bliss & pain, he is freed.
(my translation dn11)

Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?

Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?

"'And the answer to that is:
Consciousness without a medium,
without end,
luminous all around:

Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:06 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:02 pm
the non-existence of Consciousness as previously postulated.

this is called annihilation, as previously said

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:08 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:02 pm
the non-existence of Consciousness as previously postulated.

this is called annihilation, as previously said
there is no way you even had time to read and analyze it... Also every word and sentence there is based on Sutta.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:10 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:08 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:06 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:02 pm
the non-existence of Consciousness as previously postulated.

this is called annihilation, as previously said
there is no way you even had time to read and analyze it... Also every word and sentence there is based on Sutta.
you insist on complete destruction

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:12 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:10 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:08 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:06 pm



this is called annihilation, as previously said
there is no way you even had time to read and analyze it... Also every word and sentence there is based on Sutta.
you insist on complete destruction
"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."...

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."...

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord."...

"What do you think, monks — Is consciousness constant or inconstant?" "Inconstant, lord." "And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?" "Stressful, lord." "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
...
"Speaking in this way, teaching in this way, I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by some brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' But as I am not that, as I do not say that, so I have been erroneously, vainly, falsely, unfactually misrepresented by those venerable brahmans and contemplatives [who say], 'Gotama the contemplative is one who misleads. He declares the annihilation, destruction, extermination of the existing being.' [13]

"Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress. [14] And if others insult, abuse, taunt, bother, & harass the Tathagata for that, he feels no hatred, no resentment, no dissatisfaction of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate the Tathagata for that, he feels no joy, no happiness, no elation of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate the Tathagata for that, he thinks, 'They do me such service at this that has already been comprehended.' [15]

"Therefore, monks, if others insult, abuse, taunt, bother, & harass you as well, you should feel no hatred, no resentment, no dissatisfaction of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate you as well, you should feel no joy, no gladness, no elation of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate you, you should think, 'They do us [16] such service at this that has already been comprehended.'

"Therefore, monks, whatever isn't yours: Let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term welfare & happiness. And what isn't yours? Form (body) isn't yours: Let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term welfare & happiness. Feeling isn't yours... Perception... Thought fabrications... Consciousness isn't yours: Let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term welfare & happiness.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:15 pm

though you let go of consciousness, this doesn't imply it is destroyed

any more than letting go of the world, will destroy the world

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:19 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:15 pm
though you let go of consciousness, this doesn't imply it is destroyed

any more than letting go of the world, will destroy the world
"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
"And what is craving? What is the origination of craving? What is the cessation of craving? What is the way of practice leading to the cessation of craving?

"There are these six cravings: craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for smells, craving for tastes, craving for tactile sensations, craving for ideas. This is called craving.

"From the origination of feeling comes the origination of craving. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of craving is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.

"I had direct knowledge of feeling...

"I had direct knowledge of perception...

"I had direct knowledge of fabrications...

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness... of the origination of consciousness... of the cessation of consciousness... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.
...
"And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness — eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness: this is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:15 pm
any more than letting go of the world, will destroy the world[/i]
The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.
...
"And what is the ending of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now, from the remainderless cessation & fading away of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:28 pm

yes the world ends, so to speak, it's not annihilated, destroyed

words are useful, but misleading

Nirvana is the end, but is also called endless

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:39 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:28 pm
yes the world ends, so to speak, it's not annihilated, destroyed

words are useful, but misleading

Nirvana is the end, but is also called endless
It seems like this only applies to a sub-set of texts in your bubble of a world magically floating in unreality

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