What is Nirodha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:08 pm
Even though you appear to deliberately intentionally choose to ignore/deny suttas such as MN 38 and MN 148 that appear to explicit say "nirodha" occurs when "the eye sees the form and consciousness arises";
I've just looked at MN38 and can't see this. Could you provide a quote?
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:08 pm
how do you ignore/deny/refute the following from the Anapanasati Sutta that says mindfulness, investigation of dhamma, concentration & other factors of enlightenment dependent upon "nirodha"? :shrug:
It’s when a mendicant develops the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ. Dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … pe … vīriyasambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … pītisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … passaddhisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … samādhisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … upekkhāsambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
nissita = by means of
Cessation of what though? I looked up the meaning of "nissitam", but I'm not sure it clarifies the situation: https://palidictionary.appspot.com/browse/n/nissita

In any case there is no mention of your "ignorant consciousness" ceasing.

By the way, I am not ignoring or denying what particular suttas say. The problem is that you are reading in meanings which aren't actually present, and thereby failing to make your case.

You still need to explain why the DO suttas in reverse mode clearly show each nidana ceasing in dependence upon the cessation of the preceding nidana.
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SarathW
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:54 pm

Ven. Kumara Kassapa mentioned even the sleep is a type of Nirodha?
However, it is the wrong cessation (Mitya Nirodha)
He said that in sleep all the five senses are in Nirodha except Manayatana and Dhammayatana.
The video is in the Sinhalese language.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:14 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:54 pm
Ven. Kumara Kassapa mentioned even the sleep is a type of Nirodha?
I think in the sutttas nirodha refers to dependent cessation, eg "When this isn't, that isn't.... With the ceasing of this, that ceases". There is also the implication of permanence.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:44 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:08 am
Yes, cessation of desire and aversion.
But not cessation of delusion? Not cessation of the fetter of ignorance? Not the cessation of the asava of ignorance? Regardless, you did not answer the question put to you.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:08 am
In any case there is no mention of your "ignorant consciousness" ceasing.
It is you that is asserting cessation means cessation of consciousness. You were asked: "How is cessation observed in Stage 15 of MN 118 if cessation means cessation of consciousness?". :shrug:
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:08 am
MN 38
Final paragraphs; which refer to cessation occurring when the eye sees the form, etc.
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:08 am
You still need to explain why the DO suttas in reverse mode clearly show each nidana ceasing in dependence upon the cessation of the preceding nidana.
Irrelevant because the above statement is merely an interpretation by yourself. This topic is about what is nirodha. Above, you are not exploring the question but making an implicit personal conclusion about what nirodha is.

Dinsdale
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:44 am
But not cessation of delusion? Not cessation of the fetter of ignorance? Not the cessation of the asava of ignorance? Regardless, you did not answer the question put to you.
I have answered your questions many times, the problem is that you don't like the answers because they don't fit your idiosyncratic interpretations.
To repeat, it is citta which is afflicted by the taints, not vinnana. In the suttas vinnana is just sense-consciousness, it is like bare awareness.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:44 am
You were asked: "How is cessation observed in Stage 15 of MN 118 if cessation means cessation of consciousness?". :shrug:
It doesn't mean cessation of consciousness in that context.
To repeat, the DO suttas in reverse mode clearly describe each nidana ceasing in dependence on the preceding nidana. They don't describe a "conversion" of nidanas from ignorant to wise, or whatever. With your logic all the nidanas would be converted from ignorant to wise, which simply doesn't make sense.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:02 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:59 am
To repeat, the DO suttas in reverse mode clearly described each nidana ceasing in dependence on the preceding nidana.
No need to keep repeating. Nirodha appears to obviously most often refer to the cessation of defilements, which is probably why MN 38 & MN 148 refer to cessation occurring while consciousness exists. Thus when the 1st nidana of ignorance ceases; the 3rd nidana of consciousness that is polluted by ignorance ceases; as appears clearly described in SN 22.53. Also, when the 2nd nidana of ignorant sankharas ceases; the 3rd nidana of consciousness preoccupied with or landing on ignorant sankharas ceases; as appears clearly described in SN 22.53.

If the cessation of ignorance resulted in the cessation of both defiled & undefiled consciousness then a Buddha would be unconsciousness.
Uppajjati with samudaya

Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises (uppajjati); the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one.

MN 148

On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38
Uppajjati with nirodha

Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises (uppajjati); the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one.

MN 148

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases (nirujjhati)in him. With the cessation (nirodho) of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38

SarathW
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:43 am

Can we start the process of cessation (Nirodha) in the middle of the reverse order (not at the beginning -"With the complete eradication and cessation of ignorance, reaction (conditioning) ceases;"?
For instance, can I start it at "with the cessation of craving and aversion, clinging ceases;"?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by James Tan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:33 am

If you follow the order of ten fetters , ignorance will be abandoned at the end . But , if you follow the paticasamuppada , you abandoned the ignorance at the beginning . :juggling:
:reading:

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