What is Nirodha?

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SarathW
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What is Nirodha?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:43 am

What is Nirodha?
What is meant by Nirodha (cessation) for instance Salayatana Nirodha etc?

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Reverse Order

With the complete eradication and cessation of ignorance, reaction (conditioning) ceases;
with the cessation of reaction (conditioning), consciousness ceases;
with the cessation of consciousness, mind-body cease;
with the cessation of mind-body, the six senses cease;
with the cessation of the six senses, contact ceases;
with the cessation of contact, seansation ceases;
with the cessation of sensation, craving and aversion cease;
with the cessation of craving and aversion, clinging ceases;
with the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases;
with the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases;
with the cessation of birth, ageing and death cease, together
with sorrow, lamentation, physical and mental sufferings and tribulations.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk212b.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:22 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:43 am
What is Nirodha?
Probably need to 1st ask: "What is Samudaya (Arising)"?

auto
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by auto » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:19 pm

ignorance is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling.

i think nirodha is the dimension when six sense media is cessated.
op
with the cessation of mind-body, the six senses cease;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected."[2]
"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion."[3]
2nd jhana
op
with the cessation of contact, seansation ceases;
3rd jhana
op
with the cessation of sensation, craving and aversion cease;
4th jhana
op
with the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases;

When i make a little noise then cats ears will move and react, if i do sudden loud noise, cats body will move.
So i need smells, vision, sense consciousness to have life in me.

Ignorance is removed when i notice the obsession there with that, i after that with that particular feeling i don't need trigger life.

auto
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by auto » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:26 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:19 pm
ignorance is neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"What lies on the other side of neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"
"Ignorance lies on the other side of neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."
"What lies on the other side of ignorance?"
"Clear knowing lies on the other side of ignorance."
in otherwords words can't say "is"


also wouldn't that imply a 3D model or a twist or something?

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:38 pm

cessation means that something is extinguished, comes to an end and is not.
IE one feels pain then the pain ceases, it is extinguished and no longer arises.
There is no hidden meaning.

SarathW
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:10 pm

Probably need to 1st ask: "What is Samudaya (Arising)"?
So Nirodha means not arising?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:11 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:10 pm
So Nirodha means not arising?
I imagine nirodha is the opposite or non-occurring of "Arising" ("Samudaya"). For example, in relation to "contact", the following appears to be "arising of contact":
To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that.

SN 22.81
Or I imagine the following appears to be about the "arising" of consciousness:
Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), landing on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), landing on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), landing on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

SN 22.53
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:21 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:38 pm
cessation means that something is extinguished, comes to an end and is not.
IE one feels pain then the pain ceases, it is extinguished and no longer arises.
There is no hidden meaning.
Do u think the following is an example of "Arising" ("Samudaya")? If so, why is the word "Samudaya" not used?
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises...

Cakkhuñcāvuso, paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ

MN 18

SarathW
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:42 pm

Thanks DD
What is the difference between Samudaha and uppajjati?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:21 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:38 pm
cessation means that something is extinguished, comes to an end and is not.
IE one feels pain then the pain ceases, it is extinguished and no longer arises.
There is no hidden meaning.
Do u think the following is an example of "Arising" ("Samudaya")? If so, why is the word "Samudaya" not used?
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises...

Cakkhuñcāvuso, paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ

MN 18
this is not a matter of etymology; arises, occurs, takes place, happens are all semantically related

The teaching is quite simple, Y depends on X, when X is Y is, when X is not Y is not. One's paycheck depends on one having a job, when there is no job there is no paycheck. A functioning car runs as long as there is fuel in the tank, with the cessation of fuel it does not run. This is not rocket science.

The confusing part in this Dispensation is that there is an expression "X depends on Y" where "Y depends on X" and there is a "Z" which does not depend on anything and does not occur.
“If one is asked, ‘From what requisite condition does name-&-form come?’ one should say, ‘Name-&-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.’

“If one is asked, ‘Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?’ one should answer, ‘There is.’

“If one is asked, ‘From what requisite condition does consciousness come?’ one should say, ‘Consciousness comes from name-&-form as its requisite condition.’

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cappuccino
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:44 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:44 pm
“If one is asked, ‘Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?’ one should answer, ‘There is.’

“If one is asked, ‘From what requisite condition does consciousness come?’ one should say, ‘Consciousness comes from name-&-form as its requisite condition.’

The Buddha, however, denied that nibbāna was annihilation. At the same time, what good would be the end of suffering if it meant total annihilation? Only people who hate themselves or hate all experience would go for it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... tself.html

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salayatananirodha
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by salayatananirodha » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:36 am

Something has to be of a nature to arise in order to cease. When something arises from a cause, it ceases when its cause ceases. Ignorance depends on the arising of influxes, and vice versa; they are mutually conditioned.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

pegembara
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by pegembara » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:08 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:44 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:44 pm
“If one is asked, ‘Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?’ one should answer, ‘There is.’

“If one is asked, ‘From what requisite condition does consciousness come?’ one should say, ‘Consciousness comes from name-&-form as its requisite condition.’

The Buddha, however, denied that nibbāna was annihilation. At the same time, what good would be the end of suffering if it meant total annihilation? Only people who hate themselves or hate all experience would go for it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... tself.html
Hate is a bit too strong word to use.
There are no painful mental states, chieftain,
in one without longing.
In one whose fetters are ended,
all fears are overcome.
With the ending of [craving]
the guide to becoming,
when phenomena are seen
for what they are,
anicca, dukkha, anatta
then just as in the laying down of a burden,
there's no fear in death.

One gone to the far shore
without clinging
without effluent
his task completed,
welcomes the ending of life,
as if freed from a place of execution.
Having attained the supreme Rightness,
unconcerned with all the world,
as if released from a burning house,
he doesn't sorrow at death.

Fabrications will simply go out of existence.
What's to lament there in that?
For one who sees, as it actually is,
the pure arising of phenomena,
the pure seriality of fabrications,
there's no fear.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:42 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:44 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:21 pm
Do u think the following is an example of "Arising" ("Samudaya")? If so, why is the word "Samudaya" not used?
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises...

Cakkhuñcāvuso, paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ

MN 18
this is not a matter of etymology; arises, occurs, takes place, happens are all semantically related

The teaching is quite simple, Y depends on X, when X is Y is, when X is not Y is not.
The uppajjati above is found in the teachings below (MN 148 & MN 38), where this uppajjati occurs both with samudaya and with nirodha. Therefore, friend, the impression is uppajjati & samudaya are not exactly synonymous. In other words, it appears consciousness can "uppajjati" ("arise" in English) at the very same moment it can "nirodha" ("quench" in English). It seems obvious consciousness that arises dependent upon a sense organ is not the same as a consciousness that arises dependent upon ignorance. Therefore the teaching might not be quite simple. Y depends on X is not the same as Y depends on Z, i.e., X does not necessarily equal Z. :roll:
Uppajjati with samudaya

Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one.

MN 148

On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38
Uppajjati with nirodha

Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises a feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one does not sorrow, grieve and lament, does not weep beating one’s breast and become distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion does not lie within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one.

MN 148

On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases (nirujjhati)in him. With the cessation (nirodho) of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38

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Re: What is Nirodha?

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:42 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:10 pm
So Nirodha means not arising?
I think that's correct, though I can't see any practical difference between "not arising" and "ceasing".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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