There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

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SarathW
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There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:29 pm

There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

The above statement is made in the following Dhamma talk. (Sinhalese language)
Does this mean ear and the sound same?

Does this make sense?


“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:44 pm

Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Unfortunately, I can't understand the video, but I would have thought that the formulation above means that there can indeed be sound without an ear (i.e. vibrations which are not heard because there is no functioning ear) and there can be an ear without sound (i.e. no vibrations and/or no ear consciousness).

justindesilva
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:54 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:44 pm
Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Unfortunately, I can't understand the video, but I would have thought that the formulation above means that there can indeed be sound without an ear (i.e. vibrations which are not heard because there is no functioning ear) and there can be an ear without sound (i.e. no vibrations and/or no ear consciousness).
It is my feeling that what is explained here is deep and complicated for a person to absorb without vipassana meditation. We must see something from what is said in a sermon.
A certain other person may understand this fact about phassa , vedana, sanna , sankara , vingnana from simpler examples.

Dinsdale
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:08 am

For me the point is not to get bogged down in a thicket of philosophical views on such questions, but to realise that contact is conditional, transient and uncertain, and therefore unsatisfactory, and not to be grasped at.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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seeker242
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by seeker242 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:15 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:29 pm
Does this mean ear and the sound same?

Does this make sense?
Ear and sound the same thing? No, that makes no sense at all. There is not a sound sticking out from the side of your head. And ear doctors don't operate on sounds. :meditate:

justindesilva
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:33 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:15 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:29 pm
Does this mean ear and the sound same?

Does this make sense?
Ear and sound the same thing? No, that makes no sense at all. There is not a sound sticking out from the side of your head. And ear doctors don't operate on sounds. :meditate:
The abidamma in its simple sense explains :
a vibration of sound occurs outside our body. This sound waves of varying frequencies enter our ear. Some physical feature (the drum) of our ear transwers this frequency of wave to our brain. Memory ( vingnsna) in the brain analyses this sound and decides with experience , to what experience of ours, ( sankara) this sound belongs. Is it a door bell , a drum or a voice etc.
Then a part our brain cells ( manasikara) decides to embrace this sound , or to reject it , either with anger or pleasure. By the time we decide on our impressions, the origin and the effect of energies have vanished , and a next similar session of another vingana starts.
It is an act of energies and frequencies.
This is also a part of the process of Dependant origination.

SarathW
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:47 pm

ear doctors don't operate on sounds. :meditate:
In Buddhism ear is not the physical ear.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:54 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:29 pm
There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound? Does this make sense?
I doubt the Lord Buddha taught like this because the above solipsistic materialism is easily debated &/or refuted. I doubt it can be regarded as 'Noble (Irrefutable) Truth'.
Now, when there is no ear, when there are no sounds, when there is no ear-consciousness, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of contact.

MN 18
It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in this way, for in many ways I have said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'

Consciousness, monks, is classified simply by the requisite condition in dependence on which it arises. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the ear & sounds is classified simply as ear-consciousness.

MN 38
:alien:
SarathW wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:47 pm
In Buddhism ear is not the physical ear.
Evidence? Thanks
Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a separate domain, and they do not experience one another's range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty & the body-faculty.

In the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling... his faculties are exceptionally clear.

MN 43

SarathW
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:49 am

Evidence? Thanks
Rupavacara and Arupavacara beings perhaps.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:52 am

There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?
If I make a sound but nothing to reflect back there won't be any sound.
:thinking: :juggling:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by pegembara » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:14 am

If the organ of hearing is not working, there is no sound for that person, only vibrations can be felt/seen.
Moreover, my world is not silent and void. I take pleasure in watching a flock of birds wheel about in the air, seeing the flow of water through a creek with mini waterfalls, and so on. I converse with my friends in person and on videophone. My world is full of visual information and I get a complete sense of pleasure and benefit from it without needing sound.

But what about music, you might ask? I can see music visually.

For me, every time I watch this, my brain explodes with a virtual orchestral symphony that rivals anything produced by Hearing musicians.

https://www.quora.com/What-do-deaf-peop ... ut-silence
The sound has never been important to me, but it's not totally absent from my world, either. I'm aware of its existence through vibrations, through context (i.e., captions that give me that information), and occasionally, if loud enough, I'll hear it (but not know what it is unless I visually verify where it came from).
For ear consciousness ie sounds to be heard, both ear and vibrations need to make contact.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:20 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:47 pm
In Buddhism ear is not the physical ear.
I don't agree. "Ability to hear" might be more accurate than "ear" though.

I think the underlying theme here is the conditionality of experience, or dependent arising / origination. In Mahayana schools this is expressed as sunyata, the lack of independent existence.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:36 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:52 am
There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?
If I make a sound but nothing to reflect back there won't be any sound.
:thinking: :juggling:
Reflecting back applies principally to light, not sound ( except for people yodelling in the mountains :tongue: ).
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:46 am

Reflecting back applies principally to light, not sound
Isn't a tree fall in a forest does not make any sound?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

justindesilva
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Re: There is no sound without ear nor ear without sound?

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:04 am

:alien: n
SarathW wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:46 am
Reflecting back applies principally to light, not sound
Isn't a tree fall in a forest does not make any sound?
Reflecting back of sound is echoe. It is even used for technical purposes. eg: marine syrveys.

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