Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
lostitude
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:51 pm
Greetings,
lostitude wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:16 pm
Given the prevalence of violent racism and homophobia in countries such as Russia, maybe those cockroaches are not so bad after all.
Please, no making this about politics, in and of itself.
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that this was a political issue. Hate and intolerance are definitely ethical issues of prime interest for our daily practice. To pick up on the OP's argument, the risk with Slavic buddhism is that its members may have a much harder time getting rid of this hatred and intolerance, precisely because some of their manifestations are culturally still very-well established if not encouraged, unlike in the West.

binocular
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by binocular » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:28 am

lostitude wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:01 am
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that this was a political issue. Hate and intolerance are definitely ethical issues of prime interest for our daily practice. To pick up on the OP's argument, the risk with Slavic buddhism is that its members may have a much harder time getting rid of this hatred and intolerance, precisely because some of their manifestations are culturally still very-well established if not encouraged, unlike in the West.
Nonsense.

Many Westerners operate out of an inherent bad faith model of information processing, and this becomes especially evident in the way they are dealing with Slavic peple, or, more specifically, Russians.

We call it "American paranoia"; but it can be found among many people, not just Americans.

Generally, Slavic nations seem to be behind with internalizing the trend of political correctness, that's why Slavic people appear rude, intolerant, etc.
In the Western world, including Western Buddhism, it appears that political correctness has become the norm of morality and what it means to be civilized. In Western Buddhist circles, political correctness seems to be synonymous with Right Speech.

Politically correct people are just very skilled at masking their hatred and violence, not that they are without them or beyond them. And when they get involved with Buddhism, they bring them into Buddhism as well, making them the implicit norm.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

lostitude
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:17 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:28 am
Politically correct people are just very skilled at masking their hatred and violence
I have yet to meet a Russian who would be willing to marry a black woman. I am sure they exist, but they are definitely not the majority and by far.
Conversely, close to no Western Eurepean would feel uncomfortable sitting near a Black person on a bench or in an airplane. Yet you can still find quite a few Russians who do, and who say that the appearance of Black people disgusts them. I speak from experience.

So you might argue whatever theory you want, but the practice speaks against you, unfortunately...

And by the way, I'm not fixating on Russia, I've seen the exact same racist attitude in China.

And you talk about bringing this tolerance into buddhism. Are you saying buddhism did not advocate for exactly the same idea? I really thought it did, but please correct me.

Circle5
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:56 pm

As a person from eastern europe, (romania is latin not slavic), I too laugh about many aspects of protestant countries especially politics, but overall we have to admit their culture is probably superior. Maybe it's detrimental on the individual level when trying to progress as a buddhist (due to lack of honesty and lack of a no-nonsense mentality), but it's great when it comes to the masses of people being better in general than eastern europeans when it comes to morality. It's great for a society to be like that.

Downsides:

- politics being transformed into a kind of pseudo-religion with people ending up with a lot of coackroaches in their head, as other posters said. Not to mention the postmodernism religion present in USA that is absolutaly ridiculous

- being super easy to scam and manipulate, making them look like stupid sheeps. They have no defense against propaganda or against getting scammed out of their money. A funny buddhist example is the sutta pitakka being copyrighted and a kindle edition that costs nothing to produce costs 200$. And some people defend this. No need to even bring up how meditation retreats operate there

- being very fake, dishonest and narcissistic which is the biggest problem when it comes to buddhism. It's not for nothing that buddha said honesty is the most important quality. Lack of honesty with yourself, having a lot of coackroaches to fight, leads to slow progress on the individual level.

- the lack of a no-nonsense mentality.

Good things:

- being not corrupt. This mental build-up that people have is using narcissism in a positive way, making them be non-corrupt. The coackroaches that they have are perfect for preventing corruption. Corruption and moral relativity in eastern europe is probably the most desgusting aspect of our culture. This is due to many reasons:

1) poverty caused by communism. Poverty always gets the animal out of people. Contrary to popular belief, poverty is highly detrimental to the morality of a person. The "poor but with a clean hearth" idea is a christian propaganda myth, meant to keep the poor self-regard high so they don't rebel. Things don't work like that in real life.

2) A communist system is built in such a way that the nr 1 trait it promotes is corruption and a "taking care of myself" mentality. (quite funny if you remember the idea when it was created was to promote the exact opposite lol)

3) Overall culture of latins, slavs and turks. Italy, Portugal, etc. are proof that corruption is not simply a product of communism. It's a product of the mental build-up of people from such cultures.

It's funny how even corrupt people from USA are not like corrupt people from here. Due to the cockroaches on their brain, even when they are corrupt they usually have to rationalize that somehow and lie to themselves that they are ok from a moral point of view. There are not that many people that are ultra-cynical and are evil while laughing proud in your face and feeling super smart about themselves.

- generosity. Americans, english etc. are highly generous. They have a ton of non-profit organizations, do volunteering, etc. When I was little, a feral dog from my random block in a random provincial city of Romania could not be treated by vets in my country so it was send by airplane to USA by a USA non-profit organization. He is still alive and even has a facebook account. Contemplate that for a moment.

- being nice people, being good intended.

- having buddhism there to begin with. Buddhism doesn't exist in eastern europe


And since I just had a Hype theory topic, it's worth making a comment in this regard: The main hype in eastern europe is the mobster hype. Mobster is not the perfect word but those that are from eastern europe get the idea. In USA, by far the most powerful is the professional hype. Sure, they are annoying as hell. It's very clingy to see PC people talking about how super fortunate they are for being middle class and stuff compared to other people. It's like being middle class is nothing short of being super rich. And like attending collage is nothing short of being a self-made millionare. They're highly hyped up into this professional hype, like children hyped up in the cool hype or mobster hype. And yet, we can all agree this hype is much better than the mobster hype we have in eastern europe. I would prefer having a higher portion of the population in this hype than in the mobster one. The only advantage eastern europeans have in this regard is not being so hyped up in general, and "keeping it real". I think it springs from having to endure communism and the 90s transition period, and having no such thing as the middle class. (middle class people used to get minimum wage until very recently, a legacy of communism) It's like "we were all in abject poverty in the 90s, we all were down, so we need to keep it real".

binocular
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by binocular » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:31 pm

lostitude wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:17 pm
I have yet to meet a Russian who would be willing to marry a black woman. I am sure they exist, but they are definitely not the majority and by far.
Conversely, close to no Western Eurepean would feel uncomfortable sitting near a Black person on a bench or in an airplane.
And if Slavic people would have a comparable history of exploitation of black people as the Americans, the British, and the French do (to name the most notable ones), and if the racial structure of the population in Slavic countries would be similar to that of the US, GB, or France -- then you'd have a point.
Yet you can still find quite a few Russians who do, and who say that the appearance of Black people disgusts them. I speak from experience.

So you might argue whatever theory you want, but the practice speaks against you, unfortunately...

And by the way, I'm not fixating on Russia, I've seen the exact same racist attitude in China.
How about exploring why exactly they don't like black people?
You'd discover that there are differences in motivation.


I've never even seen a black person up close face to face. For the simple reason that there are so few here. When I was in elementary school, there was just one black girl in the whole county (of about 20,000 people). What we got then, as official policy, was reverse racism. We were expected to feel guilty for being white, and we were expected to be extra nice to this black girl. And she was a very mean person, she got away with things that other kids would be severely punished for.

I resent it when black people, or their advocates, try to make me look like a racist and try to induce white guilt in me -- simply because of the color of my skin. My nation has never done anything against the blacks, I take no issue with them. But when they take for granted that I do, and they impose that on me -- that's when I do take issue with them. And I'm not the only one.

Like with that black girl from elementary school: I'm sure that the novelty of her black skin and curly black hair would quickly wear off and become irrelevant, were it not that the teachers were teaching us white guilt, taking for granted that we dislike blacks and that we needed to be cured of it. And this is how those teachers have created racists.
And you talk about bringing this tolerance into buddhism. Are you saying buddhism did not advocate for exactly the same idea? I really thought it did, but please correct me.
Which Buddhism? "Engaged Buddhism"?
What tolerance are you talking about?

Friendship and marriage are to a great extent about being compatible. I'm not compatible with someone who wants me to feel white guilt, that's why I wouldn't marry someone who makes me want to feel white guilt, regardless of what the color of their skin is, whether they are white or black or yellow. It just so happens that many blacks expect whites to feel white guilt.

Americans, the British, the French: they have good reasons to feel white guilt. But Slavic people don't have such reasons.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Circle5
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:57 pm

Is there a tribunal in any country of this world that would punish the son of a person for what his father did ? An innocent person punished for the deed of another different person ?

This is the argument that I bring to christians that claim people born without hands or feet, with mental handicaps, etc. are born so because of the sin of their parents. Only christians and PC people are capable of such thinking. No judge in this world would even punish an innocent person for a breaking of the law caused by another person.

binocular
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by binocular » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:43 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:57 pm
Is there a tribunal in any country of this world that would punish the son of a person for what his father did ? An innocent person punished for the deed of another different person ?

This is the argument that I bring to christians that claim people born without hands or feet, with mental handicaps, etc. are born so because of the sin of their parents. Only christians and PC people are capable of such thinking. No judge in this world would even punish an innocent person for a breaking of the law caused by another person.
A judge maybe wouldn't do that, but people in general are that way. If they cannot take revenge on someone directly, they do it to their family. Which, some say, is even more effective.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

lostitude
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

@Binocular
Positive discrimination in Europe? I'm not doubting what you say but for me it's a first, I have only ever seen that in the U.S.

In any case, it does not change the fact that many Russians and Ukrainians (to take the examples I know) hate the Blacks for being disgustingly black full stop. You may have come up with another justification not to like them but that's certainly not what I'm observing in the general population of those countries.

And even if tolerance is induced by what you call white guilt, the fact also remains that kids from an early age are taught to be tolerant and accepting of all colours, religions and sexual orientations. So obviously this is going to make it easier to develop compassion and love for everyone, compared with people who live in an environment where it's ok to say that Blacks are the same colour as crap (heard it many times from Russians).

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:57 pm
Is there a tribunal in any country of this world that would punish the son of a person for what his father did ? An innocent person punished for the deed of another different person ?

This is the argument that I bring to christians that claim people born without hands or feet, with mental handicaps, etc. are born so because of the sin of their parents. Only christians and PC people are capable of such thinking. No judge in this world would even punish an innocent person for a breaking of the law caused by another person.
Karma
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:39 am

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm
Karma
In what context do you say that? In the context of past lives (which the Buddha taught) or "collective karma" (which is hokum, not found in the Buddha's teaching).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:39 am
Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm
Karma
In what context do you say that? In the context of past lives (which the Buddha taught) or "collective karma" (which is hokum, not found in the Buddha's teaching).

Metta,
Paul. :)
No thank you, I think the matter is best left ambiguous.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

binocular
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by binocular » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:26 am

lostitude wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:30 pm
In any case, it does not change the fact that many Russians and Ukrainians (to take the examples I know) hate the Blacks for being disgustingly black full stop.
And blacks quite likely think whites are disgusting. Many yellow Asians believe whites are disgusting. Traditional Indians/Hindus think whites are inferior ... and so on. It seems rather common.
How many blacks would marry a white person? Or a Chinese person?

To single out the blacks as the winners of the oppression olympics is unfair.
You may have come up with another justification not to like them but that's certainly not what I'm observing in the general population of those countries.
I find that the most common problem when discussing racism is that the conversation is so shallow.
Instead of being disgusted by other people's apparent racism, it would help (in the spirit of Buddhist introspection) to actually have a conversation with them and to understand what they really mean and want. I find it's usually not the official stereotype about racists.
And even if tolerance is induced by what you call white guilt, the fact also remains that kids from an early age are taught to be tolerant and accepting of all colours, religions and sexual orientations. So obviously this is going to make it easier to develop compassion and love for everyone, compared with people who live in an environment where it's ok to say that Blacks are the same colour as crap (heard it many times from Russians).
It's not clear how this enforced tolerance of other races works out in reality -- just look how it works out in the US. Surely, it makes people more accepting of others on the surface, nominally. It makes for good self-presentation -- appearing tolerant, compassionate, accepting of all: that's awfully fashionable these days.
But beyond that, I don't think it's real or has any substance to it. Possibly, many people are that way because it's fashionable, because it's some kind of social norm; and not because they would, you know, actually care about the people of other colors, religions, etc.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Zom
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by Zom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:06 pm

In any case, it does not change the fact that many Russians and Ukrainians (to take the examples I know) hate the Blacks for being disgustingly black full stop.
As a Russian I can say this is not so. Russians see black people with interest, like "people from another planet", because they are so rare and few here. Majority of Russians have never met/seen black man or woman in their entire life. And I've never heard about a case when someone attacked or abused black just because he is black - racism is almost non-existent here because Russia is a huge cauldron of numerous nationalities. For example, these are Russians. These too. And these as well.

Circle5
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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by Circle5 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:19 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:06 pm
For example, these are Russians. These too. And these as well.
What ethnic group are the last ones from that list ? I've never seen such people before.

Its good you don't have gypsies in Russia. Blacks are non-existent here in Romania either except for a 1 to 5 blacks playing at the local bastketball team in major cities. Nobody has the slightest problem with blacks, they are a simple curiosity since most people never saw a black person before.

The problem in eastern europe is generally with gypsies, but I do not consider there is too much racism against them. We have learned to endure them since they've been here for so long. Most of us are like "yea, there are gypsies, there is nothing we can do about it cause what the nazist tried was not ok, they are humans too, that is not a decent solution". Some might say things like they wish Antonescu was still alive and fixed the gypsy problem, but they would not be racist to a gypsy in real life. Also, nobody has a problem with assimilated gypsies, ones that do go to school, are not criminals, don't have a "gypsy personality" and are just like normal people. While nobody likes gypsies as a group, this doesn't affect every day interactions and does not have too much of an impact on gypsies at the individual level. Only impact on the individual level is people not trusting gypsies due to the "gypsy personality". The thing is, no matter how much benefit of the doubt you might try to give a gypsy, 10 times out of 10 you will end up with the unpleasant suprise of him having a "gypsy personality" if he is not an assimilated gypsy, or in some cases even then. This is due to the way they were raised. The way a person was raised is highly conditioning on his personality, hence the saying "a gypsy will always be a gypsy" that sadly, happens to be true.

Only ones that are sometimes affected at the individual levels are good people that are from the non-assimilated gypsy group. There are such people, few, but they exist. They might have problems getting hired or being trusted by the police. Yet, they understand that it's something normal giving the conditions.
Last edited by Circle5 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Slavic Buddhism vs Western Buddhism

Post by Zom » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:44 pm

What ethnic group are the last ones from that list ?
Just a mixture from central Russia. Most Russian are even not aware of their roots. They know, at best, their grandparents, while in reality their lineage comes from several different ethnic groups.
Its good you don't have gypsies in Russia.
We have.

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