The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2627
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:39 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:38 amseems like the only thing it contradicts is your wrong view friend
No. I will quote the sutta on Right View:
With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
“If one is asked, ‘From what requisite condition does name-&-form come?’ one should say, ‘Name-&-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.’

“If one is asked, ‘Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?’ one should answer, ‘There is.’

“If one is asked, ‘From what requisite condition does consciousness come?’ one should say, ‘Consciousness comes from name-&-form as its requisite condition.’
comeon this is rediculous...
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8706
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:42 amcomeon this is rediculous...
What is rediculous is taking refuge in MN 49 & DN 11, which are about Brahma Gods and where no one get enlightened. :lol:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2627
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:44 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:42 amcomeon this is rediculous...
What is rediculous is taking refuge in MN 49 & DN 11, which are about Brahma Gods and where no one get enlightened. :lol:
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:14 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:10 am You are failing to differentiate between Nibbana as an Idea [concept] of intellect and the Unmade state where The Elements gain no footing. Essentially confusing the concept with the reality.
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 amNibbana as a concept of intellect is included in the all of the Sabbe Sutta, however as an unltimate single reality it is not of the All and the All here obviously only describes the conditioned.
Nibbana was known by the mind of the Buddha. It is not a concept and can only be known via the mind sense base.

How else can Nibbana be experienced, if not via one of the six sense bases?

:popcorn:
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:14 am Nibbana was known by the mind of the Buddha. It is not a concept and can only be known via the mind sense base.
Mind sense base has Nama&Rupa as it's condition and all concepts are of contact at Mind sense base. Cessation of Nama&Rupa means that there is no mind base and no contact, hence no concepts, thinking or any sankhara.
It is basic stuff, contact occurs with the meeting of the three at the base and has Name&Form as requisite condition...
"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'
DN 15
ok friend, i don't care to argue with you.
Image
Image
Image
Image
https://books.google.no/books?id=z7QzBg ... rm&f=false
sorry if it upset you but this is as thorough of a refutation as can be given.
btw as i told you, your pms are being auto deleted so i can't read them..
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8706
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

The Buddha didn't speak English thus didn't use the word "cessation". Regardless, "cessation" appears to mean the cessation of ignorance polluting consciousness, as I already demonstrated from SN 22.53. This has been discussed many times, with sutta quotes showing Arahants have consciousness.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2627
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:03 am The Buddha didn't speak English thus didn't use the word "cessation". Regardless, "cessation" appears to mean the cessation of ignorance polluting consciousness, as I already demonstrated from SN 22.53. This has been discussed many times, with sutta quotes showing Arahants have consciousness.
Just give up, apologize and i will teach you the Dhamma:) id much rather have you established in right view than arguing with u

Other than that you have been explicitly refuted now so i won't bother quoting more Sutta passages, it is really up to you and is really none of my bussiness what you believe.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8706
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:08 amJust give up, apologize and i will teach you the Dhamma:) id much rather have you established in right view than arguing with u
Nibbana will never ever be attained if it is believed it means literal "cessation" because such wrong view will lead to the intention to destroy consciousness . "Cessation" means the destruction of ignorance & craving. :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2627
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:12 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:08 amJust give up, apologize and i will teach you the Dhamma:) id much rather have you established in right view than arguing with u
Nibbana will never ever be attained if it is believed it means literal "cessation" because such wrong view will lead to the intention to destroy consciousness . "Cessation" means the destruction of ignorance & craving. :|
Even if you say so it is thus attained by means of cessation of the conditioned phenomena friend.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8706
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:16 amEven if you say so it is thus attained by means of cessation of the conditioned phenomena friend.
It is attained by the cessation of craving, as the Buddha taught in the 1st sermon. It will never ever be possible to end conditioned phenomena while alive. So do you wish to spend life suffering but hope at the termination of life Nibbana will miraculously occur? :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2627
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:36 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:16 amEven if you say so it is thus attained by means of cessation of the conditioned phenomena friend.
It is attained by the cessation of craving, as the Buddha taught in the 1st sermon. It will never ever be possible to end conditioned phenomena while alive. So do you wish to spend life suffering but hope at the termination of life Nibbana will miraculously occur? :|
Even if you say it is impossible, it is still possible.
It is not termination of life;
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
and it is not possible for me to "spend life suffering but hope at the termination of life Nibbana will miraculously occur"
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8706
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:45 am cessation of perception & feeling
The above is not Nibbana. Regardless it is not attained via destroying/abandoning consciousness. It is attained by abandoning craving/uwholesome states.

A tree cannot be climbed from the top. :roll:

How will you ever start the path? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 2627
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:45 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:36 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:16 amEven if you say so it is thus attained by means of cessation of the conditioned phenomena friend.
It is attained by the cessation of craving, as the Buddha taught in the 1st sermon. It will never ever be possible to end conditioned phenomena while alive. So do you wish to spend life suffering but hope at the termination of life Nibbana will miraculously occur? :|
Even if you say it is impossible, it is still possible.
It is not termination of life;
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
and it is not possible for me to "spend life suffering but hope at the termination of life Nibbana will miraculously occur"
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:48 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:45 am cessation of perception & feeling
The above is not Nibbana. Regardless it is not attained via destroying/abandoning consciousness. It is attained by abandoning craving.

A tree cannot be climbed from the top. :roll:

How will you ever start the path? :shrug:
Have a good night i am pretty much done discussing dhamma with you and i advice you not to confuse other people with your views.
Here tho note the fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided in #14, Further showing 8FNP leads to cessation which would imply cessation of perception and feeling.
Image
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:48 am How will you ever start the path? :shrug:
Assuming you are asking in general and not how i will ever start the path. You might want to figure out in regards to what exactly this was said;
170 Dhp
One who looks upon the world as a bubble and a mirage, him the King of Death sees not.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 8706
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

Most Buddhists, such as Bodhi, Tan, Thanissaro (sometimes) & Sujato would say the "fabrications" mentioned in MN 43 are not the same "fabrications" as mentioned in SN 12.2 & MN 9.

Regardless, the "cessation" in D.O. does not appear to have the same meaning as "cessation" in MN 43 because the cessation in D.O. appears to occur while conscious with feeling & perception, as described below:
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

“On hearing a sound with the ear…On smelling an odour with the nose…On tasting a flavour with the tongue…On touching a tangible with the body…On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing…With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

MN 38
:alien:
Assuming you are asking in general and not how i will ever start the path. You might want to figure out in regards to what exactly this was said;

170 Dhp

One who looks upon the world as a bubble and a mirage, him the King of Death sees not.
How will one "look upon" the world when there is your personal idiosyncratic interpretation of "cessation" of consciousness? If material consciousness materialistically ceases, how will wisdom be developed? :shrug:
Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them."

MN 43
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by pitakele »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 am There is some discussion in Sermon 9 of the related sutta AN 8.83
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... NMS_LE.pdf
or, online:
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... d_HTML.htm
See the discussion here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/al ... esire/4290

:heart:
Mike
Thank you Mike 👌
now here = nowhere
Post Reply