The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

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rightviewftw
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:09 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 amThe context of AN10.58 makes it very important as those are answers to questions of other sects.
You are totally contradicting yourself because your view of AN 10.58 is dhamma means phenomena but must exclude Nibbana, which is non-sensical.

My view is dhamma means path factors. Since path factors are sankhara (conditioned), there is no contradiction in my view nor the need to pervert the dhamma.
You are failing to differentiate between Nibbana as an Idea [concept] of intellect and the Unmade state where The Elements gain no footing. Essentially confusing the concept with the reality.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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mikenz66
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by mikenz66 »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 am
pitakele wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:04 am ...
Okay, with little or no knowledge of Pali, you have deemed that two eminent Pali scholar-translators, Vens Bodhi & Sujāto have translated this term incorrectly...
Friend, do you also think that Thanissaro has no pali knowledge, Ven. Nyanananda has no pali knowledge and Piya Tan has no pali knowledge? I just keep in mind that some translators are putthujanas and have wrong views, so when a translation does not make sense they might change the translation to fit their wrong views. Btw i do not even place Ven. Sujato in the same category as the other people, as far as translations go his are not on par imho.
...
I'm not sure that it's useful to get into a speculative debate on who is "the best translator", and especially "who is the most awakened translator". There have been many cases where some of our more knowledgeable members, such as Dhammanado, Sylvester, or Pitakele are able to point out things that some of the well-known translators may well have overlooked. This is very useful in helping the rest of us navigate some of the difficult passages in the Canon.

I suggest sticking to examining the ideas and the evidence. In this particular case, all of the available translations, and the comments in this thread, give some valuable clues to the meaning of the passage.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:10 am You are failing to differentiate between Nibbana as an Idea [concept] of intellect and the Unmade state where The Elements gain no footing. Essentially confusing the concept with the reality.
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 amNibbana as a concept of intellect is included in the all of the Sabbe Sutta, however as an unltimate single reality it is not of the All and the All here obviously only describes the conditioned.
Nibbana was known by the mind of the Buddha. It is not a concept and can only be known via the mind sense base.

How else can Nibbana be experienced, if not via one of the six sense bases?

:popcorn:
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:12 amI suggest sticking to examining the ideas and the evidence. In this particular case, all of the available translations, and the comments in this thread, give some valuable clues to the meaning of the passage.
To examine the passage, I suggest to examine the more overt of the ten dhammas in the passage.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by mikenz66 »

pitakele wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:03 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 amWhat commentary are you citing there friend? It seems to contradict sutta pitaka.
Previously, I pasted the AN 10:58 Cy. text from the Android Tipitaka app, but have now found this link on the Chattha Sangāyana site

http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0404a.att20.xml

If you have it, please post a link for Bhante Ñānānanda's translation of this sutta
There is some discussion in Sermon 9 of the related sutta AN 8.83
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... NMS_LE.pdf
or, online:
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... d_HTML.htm
See the discussion here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/al ... esire/4290

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rightviewftw
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:14 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:10 am You are failing to differentiate between Nibbana as an Idea [concept] of intellect and the Unmade state where The Elements gain no footing. Essentially confusing the concept with the reality.
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 amNibbana as a concept of intellect is included in the all of the Sabbe Sutta, however as an unltimate single reality it is not of the All and the All here obviously only describes the conditioned.
Nibbana was known by the mind of the Buddha. It is not a concept and can only be known via the mind sense base.
Mind sense base has Nama&Rupa as it's condition and all concepts are of contact at Mind sense base. Cessation of Nama&Rupa means that there is no mind base and no contact, hence no concepts, thinking or any sankhara.
It is basic stuff, contact occurs with the meeting of the three at the base and has Name&Form as requisite condition...
"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'
DN 15
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 amThere is some discussion in Sermon 9 of the related sutta AN 8.83
It is made with a bit of a stretch when it comes to interpreting the actual text. Take for an example Dhammapada quote:

manopubbaṅgamā dhammā

It doesn’t mean “mind is the forerunner of all things” as venerable Ñāṇananda says. What it says is that actions are preceeded by the mind. It’s rather obvious if one reads whole Dhp 1. & Dhp 2. stanzas. Compare it to AN 6.63 where the Buddha says:

Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect.

It’s the same message but put in different words.
Unfortunately for the sutta, its traditional commentators seem to
have ignored the deeper philosophical dimensions of the above questionnaire.
They have narrowed down the meaning of the set of answers
recommended by the Buddha by limiting its application to
wholesome mental states.16 The occurrence of such terms as chanda,
sati, samādhi and paññā, had probably led them to believe that the
entire questionnaire is on the subject of wholesome mental states.
But this is a serious underestimation of the import of the entire discourse.
It actually goes far deeper in laying bare a basic principle
governing both skilful and unskilful mental states.
Now, for instance, the first two verses of the Dhammapada bring
out a fundamental law of psychology applicable to things both skilful
and unskilful: Manopubbagamā dhammā, manosehā manomayā.

Both verses draw upon this fundamental principle. Nowadays, these
two lines are variously interpreted, but the basic idea expressed is
that "all things have mind as their forerunner, mind is their chief, and
they are mind-made". This applies to both skilful and unskilful mental
states.

Ñāṇananda
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

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rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 amWhat commentary are you citing there friend? It seems to contradict sutta pitaka.
Previously, I pasted the AN 10:58 Cy. text from the Android Tipitaka app, but have now found this link on the Chattha Sangāyana site

http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0404a.att20.xml
'Plunging into the deathless' is (said here) the nibbāna element with residue. (lit. translation)

58. aṭṭhame amatogadhāti ettha saupādisesā nibbānadhātu kathitā, nibbānapariyosānāti ettha anupādisesā. anupādisesaṃ pattassa hi sabbe dhammā pariyosānappattā nāma honti.
If you have it, please post a link for Bhante Ñānānanda's translation of this sutta
now here = nowhere
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 amMind sense base has Nama&Rupa as it's condition and all concepts are of contact at Mind sense base. Cessation of Nama&Rupa means that there is no mind base and no contact, hence no concepts, thinking or any sankhara.
It is basic stuff, contact occurs with the meeting of the three at the base and has Name&Form as requisite condition...
The Buddha said he experienced, realised & abided in Nibbana.
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 amCessation of Nama&Rupa means that there is no mind base and no contact, hence no concepts, thinking or any sankhara.
Cessation of Nama&Rupa means there is no Nama&Rupa conditioned by ignorance. We have discussed this many time before, with quotes.

:popcorn:
"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

SN 22.53
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

pitakele wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:28 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 amWhat commentary are you citing there friend? It seems to contradict sutta pitaka.
Previously, I pasted the AN 10:58 Cy. text from the Android Tipitaka app, but have now found this link on the Chattha Sangāyana site

http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0404a.att20.xml
'Plunging into the deathless' is (said here) the nibbāna element with residue. (lit. translation)

58. aṭṭhame amatogadhāti ettha saupādisesā nibbānadhātu kathitā, nibbānapariyosānāti ettha anupādisesā. anupādisesaṃ pattassa hi sabbe dhammā pariyosānappattā nāma honti.
If you have it, please post a link for Bhante Ñānānanda's translation of this sutta
i don't have the Ñānānanda's translation. Not sure what to tell you about the commentary, other than that it is wrong and Deathless is obviously not referring to Arahantship.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:31 ami don't have the Ñānānanda's translation.
I posted the translation, which was based on wrong understanding of Dhp 1.
Chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā, manasikārasambhavā
sabbe dhammā, phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā, vedanāsamosaraā
sabbe dhammā, samādhipamukhā sabbe dhammā, satādhipateyyā
sabbe dhammā, paññuttarā sabbe dhammā, vimuttisārā sabbe
dhammā. "Rooted in desire, friends, are all things. Born of attention
are all things. Arisen from contact are all things. Converging on
feeling are all things. Headed by concentration are all things. Dominated
by mindfulness are all things. Surmountable by wisdom are all
things. Yielding deliverance as essence are all things."


Unfortunately for the sutta, its traditional commentators seem to
have ignored the deeper philosophical dimensions of the above questionnaire.
They have narrowed down the meaning of the set of answers
recommended by the Buddha by limiting its application to
wholesome mental states.16 The occurrence of such terms as chanda,
sati, samādhi and paññā, had probably led them to believe that the
entire questionnaire is on the subject of wholesome mental states.
But this is a serious underestimation of the import of the entire discourse.
It actually goes far deeper in laying bare a basic principle
governing both skilful and unskilful mental states.
Now, for instance, the first two verses of the Dhammapada bring
out a fundamental law of psychology applicable to things both skilful
and unskilful: Manopubbagamā dhammā, manosehā manomayā.

Both verses draw upon this fundamental principle. Nowadays, these
two lines are variously interpreted, but the basic idea expressed is
that "all things have mind as their forerunner, mind is their chief, and
they are mind-made".
This applies to both skilful and unskilful mental
states.

Ñāṇananda
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:29 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 amMind sense base has Nama&Rupa as it's condition and all concepts are of contact at Mind sense base. Cessation of Nama&Rupa means that there is no mind base and no contact, hence no concepts, thinking or any sankhara.
It is basic stuff, contact occurs with the meeting of the three at the base and has Name&Form as requisite condition...
The Buddha said he experienced, realised & abided in Nibbana.
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:22 amCessation of Nama&Rupa means that there is no mind base and no contact, hence no concepts, thinking or any sankhara.
Cessation of Nama&Rupa means there is no Nama&Rupa conditioned by ignorance. We have discussed this many time before, with quotes.

:popcorn:
This is rediculous, here you go:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
supramundane absorbtion.
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
Unmade
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:35 am
This is rediculous, here you go:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
The above contradicts the suttas because it is a teaching for Brahma gods and uses nama-rupa with Brahmanistic meaning. The suttas say conscousness & nama-rupa arise & fall together.

:strawman: :jedi:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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rightviewftw
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:37 am
rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:35 am
This is rediculous, here you go:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
The above contradicts the suttas because it is a teaching for Brahma gods and uses nama-rupa with Brahmanistic meaning.
seems like the only thing it contradicts is your wrong view friend
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:38 amseems like the only thing it contradicts is your wrong view friend
No. I will quote the sutta on Right View. Consciousness & nama-rupa can only arise & quench together. The cannot be a consciousness without nama-rupa.
With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality.

Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
:pig: :jedi:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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