The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

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DooDoot
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:14 am

pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
To my understanding, the commentarial exposition of sabbe dhammā as five aggregates...
Which commentary says this? One commentary (Dīgha Porāṇa Ṭīkā) appeared to say "dhamma" in AN 10.58 refers to wholesome dhammas.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by pitakele » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:30 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:14 am
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
To my understanding, the commentarial exposition of sabbe dhammā as five aggregates...
Which commentary says this? One commentary (Dīgha Porāṇa Ṭīkā) appeared to say "dhamma" in AN 10.58 refers to wholesome dhammas.
I haven't read the commentary. I was replying to this statement.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm
According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates.
now here = nowhere

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm

pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
Gādhati [Gādhati] [v. der. fr. gādha2] to stand fast, to be on firm ground, to have a firm footing: āpo ca paṭhavī ca tejo vāyo na gādhati 'the four elements have no footing' D i.223=S i.15; —Dhamma-Vinaye gādhati 'to stand fast in the Doctrine & Discipline' S iii.59 sq. —  
https://goo.gl/dcwFtt
Ogadha (-- ˚) (adj.) [Sk. avagāḍha; P. form with shortened a, fr. ava + gāh, see gādha1 & gāhati] immersed, merging into, diving or plunging into. Only in two main phrases, viz. Amatogadha & Nibbānogadha diving into
https://goo.gl/hZJnf5
It is only Ven. Thānissaro who has translated this term as 'gain footing'. Thus, the question needs to be asked: is he translating the same Pali term ogadhā or has he translated a variant of it which is linked to the verbal root gādh, 'stand fast', perhaps found in the Thai script Pali canon? He is fluent in Thai.
Friend, when i am looking at this i see that there is no real proof that Thanissaro is wrong and the AN10.58 might well be linked to the verbal root gādh, 'stand fast' rather than gāh
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
Vigayha [Vigayha] see vigāhati...Vigāhati [Vigāhati] [vi+gāhati] to plunge into, to enter S i.180 (ger. vigāhiya); J v.381 (°gāhisuṃ, aor.); Mhvs 19, 29 (here as °gāhetvā). The ger. is also vigayha at Sn 2, 825; cp. Nd1 163 (=ogayha pavisitvā).
https://goo.gl/uaoo2f
based on this would not plunging into deathless rather be spelled as Amatogahiya or something other than amatogadha?
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm
According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates.
A difference: you are relying on commentary from AN 8.83 to try to understand AN 10.58, whereas I am using another sutta SN 48:44 to lend light to the meaning of AN 10.58.
As a matter of fact friend, i did not even know of the commentary until couple days ago and i am only relying on my understanding of the Dhamma as a whole and the commentary just happens to agree with me. AN 8.83 happens to cover those exact same questions and give exact same answers for 8/10 questions so it is most reasonable to use it for understanding the 10.58
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
To my understanding, the commentarial exposition of sabbe dhammā as five aggregates does not clarify the phrase amatogadhā sabbe dhammā. 'The five aggregates culminate (plunge into) in the Deathless' does not have any useful meaning, esp. as an answer/teaching for other sectarians. I was somewhat dismissive of commentarial explanations in my previous post. However, if this is the best commentarial explanation offered for this phrase, it would only confirm my cynicism.
Just because you do not understand something does not mean that it is wrong friend. I understand it and the commentators obviously did as well.
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
Although this is a short sutta, it appears the commentary has not helped you understand it to your satisfaction (hence, your posting it as a topic).
The explaination that you are offering is not at all hard to understand. The expression Culminates in Deathless while it does not make any sense literally it is not hard to understand either if one takes it as a figure of speech to mean that "deathless is attained and it is jolly", again not difficult to understand, nothing profound there.

The problem is that The Answers apply to all the Sankhara not only Factors of enlightenment and nowhere in the discourses are Sabbe Dhamma defined as Factors of Enlightenment. However Sabbe Dhamma being explained as Aggregates can be inferred from the Sutta.
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
But the destruction of craving and the destruction of cankers are realized simultaneously. Khīnāsava, 'cankers destroyed', is a designation for an Arahat, one who is free of all craving. The Anāgāmī is free of kāmāsava and the Arahat is free of kāmāsava, bhavāsava & āvijjāsava.
Not all cankers are necessarily destroyed simultaneously friend.
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm
The easiest way to show that it is wrong to equate Deathless with "Nibbana with residue" is pointing out that Sariputta and Moggalanna attained Deathless prior to becoming Arahants
You've quoted above that the Deathless is the destruction of lust, hatred and delusion, yet you contradict this by saying that Vens Sāriputta & Moggallāna attained the Deathless prior to becoming Arahants?
There is no contradiction, destruction does not necessarily happen all at once and fetters are not necessarily removed with first attainment of cessation. While at stream entry the path is born, the development of that same path is what eventually destroys all the cankers completely and the 8th birth is impossible, when the path of arahantship is attained that is the final removal of the cankers and the state of of who has attained it is referred to as Nibbana Element with residue;
Then Sariputta the wanderer spoke thus to the Ven. Assaji:

Speak a little or a lot,
but tell me just the gist.
The gist is what I want.
What use is a lot of rhetoric?

Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the Wanderer:

Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
and their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.

Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "

"But how, friend, did you attain the Deathless?"

"Just now, friend, I saw Ven. Assaji going for alms in Rajagaha: gracious in the way he approached and departed, looked forward and behind, drew in and stretched out his arm; his eyes downcast, his every movement consummate. On seeing him, the thought occurred to me: 'Surely, of those in this world who are arahants or have entered the path to arahantship, this is one. What if I were to approach him and question him: "On whose account have you gone forth? Who is your teacher? In whose Dhamma do you delight?"'

"But then the thought occurred to me: 'This is the wrong time to question him. He is going for alms in the town. What if I were to follow behind this monk who has found the path for those who seek it?'

"Then Ven. Assaji, having gone for alms in Rajagaha, left, taking the alms he had received. I approached him and, on arrival, having exchanged friendly greetings and engaged in polite conversation, stood to one side. As I stood there I said, 'Your faculties are bright, my friend, your complexion pure and clear. On whose account have you gone forth? Who is your teacher? In whose Dhamma do you delight?'

"'There is, my friend, the Great Contemplative, a son of the Sakyans, gone forth from a Sakyan family. I have gone forth on account of that Blessed One. That Blessed One is my teacher. It is in that Blessed One's Dhamma that I delight.'

"'But what is your teacher's teaching? What does he proclaim?'

"'I am new, my friend, not long gone forth, only recently come to this doctrine and discipline. I cannot explain the doctrine to you in detail, but I can give you the gist in brief.'

"'Speak a little or a lot,
but tell me just the gist.
The gist is what I want.
What use is a lot of rhetoric?'

"Then Ven. Assaji gave me this Dhamma exposition:

"'Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
and their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.'"

Then to Moggallana the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.

— Mv.I.23.5
Here they are not Arahants.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
Therefore Deathless does not Equate to Nibbana with residue. While they had attained the Deathless they did not attain Arahantship.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:04 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:14 am
pitakele wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:04 am
To my understanding, the commentarial exposition of sabbe dhammā as five aggregates...
Which commentary says this? One commentary (Dīgha Porāṇa Ṭīkā) appeared to say "dhamma" in AN 10.58 refers to wholesome dhammas.
from Deeele's comment on SC:

Ñāṇananda adds that the early commentators have missed out on such deep dimensions and vital developments, and have merely “narrowed down the meaning of the set of answers recommended by the Buddha by limiting its application to wholesome mental states,” such as in Dīgha Porāṇa Ṭīkā 2

2 Ñāṇananda quotes only DAṬ 1:138; but see also AA 4:158 (which glosses sabbe dhammā as the 5 aggregates), AA 5:41 (which says that the Sutta relates to the final attaining of remainderless nirvana).
Ñāṇananda adds that the early commentators have missed out on such deep dimensions and vital developments, and have merely “narrowed down the meaning of the set of answers recommended by the Buddha by limiting its application to wholesome mental states,”
This is x1000.

Here is Thanissaro's Note to an10.58
According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here), "all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates. These are rooted in desire, it says, because the desire to act (and thus create kamma) is what underlies their existence. The Commentary's interpretation here seems to be an expansion on MN 109, in which the five clinging-aggregates are said to be rooted in desire, an assertion echoed in SN 42.11, which states that suffering & stress are rooted in desire. Here, all the aggregates — whether affected by clinging or not — are said to be rooted in desire.

The Commentary goes on to say that the statement, "All phenomena are rooted in desire," deals exclusively with worldly phenomena, whereas the remaining statements about all phenomena cover both worldly and transcendent phenomena. There seems less reason to follow the Commentary's first assertion here, in that the noble eightfold path, when brought to maturity, counts as transcendent, and it is obviously rooted in a skillful form of desire.

As for the transcendent in its ultimate form, the phrase "all phenomena" as used in this sutta does not cover Unbinding, as Unbinding is not rooted in anything and, as the final statement indicates, it constitutes the final end of all phenomena. Thus this sutta would seem to belong to the group of suttas that would not classify Unbinding as a phenomenon. (On this question, see the note to AN 3.134.)
Furthermore it is quite presumptuous to assume that wanderers from other sects would go around asking about The Factors of Enlightenment or The Five Spiritual Faculties and referring to it as Sabbe Dhamma.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:16 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:04 pm
Here is Thanissaro's Note to an10.58
Sure. But does it make logical sense? Has it been reflected upon with yoniso manasikara?
These are rooted in desire, it says, because the desire to act (and thus create kamma) is what underlies their existence.
A tree or the moon is a phenomena. Are they rooted in desire?
The Commentary's interpretation here seems to be an expansion on MN 109, in which the five clinging-aggregates are said to be rooted in desire, an assertion echoed in SN 42.11, which states that suffering & stress are rooted in desire.
We already examined the suttas that directly & unambiguously define these verses. For me, there is no point in relying on MN 109 because "chanda" has different contextual meanings. Contrary to MN 109, the chandha that is Iddhipada does not lead to clinging to aggregates. MN 109 refers to unwholesome chanda while Iddhipada (SN 51.20) refers to wholesome chandha.
The Commentary goes on to say that the statement, "All phenomena are rooted in desire," deals exclusively with worldly phenomena
This appears to make no sense at all because at least the other 8 dhammas in AN 10.58 are not "worldly phenomena". Why would AN 10.58 include one or two worldly and eight non-worldly phenomena? :shrug:
whereas the remaining statements about all phenomena cover both worldly and transcendent phenomena. There seems less reason to follow the Commentary's first assertion here, in that the noble eightfold path, when brought to maturity, counts as transcendent, and it is obviously rooted in a skillful form of desire.
Indeed. Well spoken.
As for the transcendent in its ultimate form, the phrase "all phenomena" as used in this sutta does not cover Unbinding, as Unbinding is not rooted in anything and, as the final statement indicates, it constitutes the final end of all phenomena.
Unbinding is reached via Chandha Iddhipada (SN 51.20). Regardless, "sabbe dhamma" does not refer to "all phenomena". That Unbinding is not rooted in anything shows why "sabbe dhamma" does not mean "all phenonema". It means "all skilful practises". Here, Thanissaro is refuting his own translation.
Thus this sutta would seem to belong to the group of suttas that would not classify Unbinding as a phenomenon. (On this question, see the note to AN 3.134.)
This is not a compelling argument. "All phenomena" must include Nibbana; most importantly in AN 3.134. If AN 3.134 is not include NIbbana then AN 3.134. would say "sabbe sankhara anatta" instead of "sabbe dhamma anatta". Anyway, I tried to share my views about this. For me, it is not important given I personally have no doubts about my views.

Kind regards. Thanks for chatting, friend. Good night from here. :smile:
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:16 pm
. Regardless, "sabbe dhamma" does not refer to "all phenomena". That Unbinding is not rooted in anything shows why "sabbe dhamma" does not mean "all phenonema". It means "all skilful practises". Here, Thanissaro is refuting his own translation.
The wanderers of other sects can not be expected to pose a question knowing of the non-made, therefore Sabbe Dhamma to them could only mean the created.

Your questions friend, in particular
A tree or the moon is a phenomena. Are they rooted in desire?
is based on a notion that if you perceive a tree that proves that the tree exists which is akin to the statement "I think therefore I am" but rather goes "I see a tree therefore the tree is", the fallacy of this kind of reasoning has been well-established and i do not want to get into it but here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum#Critique

From the perspective of the Dhamma, what arises is sankhara originating from contact and can be delineated as feeling, consciousness, perception or form.
When one perceives forms that is seeing, that sense impression is a sankhara, a delineation of contact at the eye-base as perception. When one thinks about what one perceives as a tree that is conceptualization which is a sense-impression based on contact at the intellect base, also sankhara.
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Friend, I don't think i can explain my understanding of the Aggregates to you in a way that you would understand so i won't get further into that either.

When a person assumes that Sabbe Dhamma refers only to a subset of Dhamma, he has to explain in what are the other Dhammas rooted. If he says they are rooted in something else or not rooted in anything he has to provide support for this.

Not to mention having to explain why the questions was not posed as "In what are the kusala Dhammas rooted?" and having to explain why the Answers in 10.58 apply to aggregates which are themselves can be explained to be all created phenomena (Sabbe Dhamma to a person outside of dispensation).

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:56 am

Not how i understand the 9th enumeration but it is a version and a pretty good analysis overall.
https://vdocuments.mx/3210-kim-mulaka-s-a883-piya.html

Image
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by pitakele » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm
Friend, when i am looking at this i see that there is no real proof that Thanissaro is wrong and the AN10.58 might well be linked to the verbal root gādh, 'stand fast' rather than gāh

Okay, with little or no knowledge of Pali, you have deemed that two eminent Pali scholar-translators, Vens Bodhi & Sujāto have translated this term incorrectly...
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm
based on this would not plunging into deathless rather be spelled as Amatogahiya or something other than amatogadha?
No, there are many verbal forms & derivatives in Pali, esp. in verse where words are often modified to facilitate euphony.

I recommend that you take up the study of Pali because it will give you direct access to the suttas, gradually negating the need to rely on others' translations. It may take a year of constant study to be able read suttas effectively. Some individuals have a natural aptitude for foreign languages and quickly master Pali e.g. Ven. Ñāñamoli translated the Visuddimagga after just six months of Pali study. Once you have a grounding in Pali, it a precious jewel that stays with you throughout life.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm
"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless."
— Mv.I.23.5
Here they are not Arahants.....
Therefore Deathless does not Equate to Nibbana with residue. While they had attained the Deathless they did not attain Arahantship.
As you probably know Vens Sāriputta & Moggallāna had a pact that they would inform the other if they realized the deathless. No doubt, Sāriputta had a very powerful 'opening of the Dhamma eye' and this prompted him to label it as the deathless. Despite his accumulated pāramî to be a future chief disciple, he had only realized Stream Winning at that point. Afaik, this is the only place in the Canon where a Stream Winner has made such a declaration. It is an anomaly. If you find more cases, please post the links. In comparison, there are many instances of Arahats speaking about the deathless.

The deathless is an Arahatta only domain as It equates with nibbāna with residue - as stated in the AN 10:58 Commentary:
'Plunging into the deathless' is (said here) the nibbāna element with residue. (lit. translation)

58. aṭṭhame amatogadhāti ettha saupādisesā nibbānadhātu kathitā, nibbānapariyosānāti ettha anupādisesā. anupādisesaṃ pattassa hi sabbe dhammā pariyosānappattā nāma honti.
now here = nowhere

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 am

pitakele wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:04 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm
Friend, when i am looking at this i see that there is no real proof that Thanissaro is wrong and the AN10.58 might well be linked to the verbal root gādh, 'stand fast' rather than gāh

Okay, with little or no knowledge of Pali, you have deemed that two eminent Pali scholar-translators, Vens Bodhi & Sujāto have translated this term incorrectly...
Friend, do you also think that Thanissaro has no pali knowledge, Ven. Nyanananda has no pali knowledge and Piya Tan has no pali knowledge? I just keep in mind that some translators are putthujanas and have wrong views, so when a translation does not make sense they might change the translation to fit their wrong views. Btw i do not even place Ven. Sujato in the same category as the other people, as far as translations go his are not on par imho.
pitakele wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:04 am

I recommend that you take up the study of Pali because it will give you direct access to the suttas, gradually negating the need to rely on others' translations. It may take a year of constant study to be able read suttas effectively. Some individuals have a natural aptitude for foreign languages and quickly master Pali e.g. Ven. Ñāñamoli translated the Visuddimagga after just six months of Pali study. Once you have a grounding in Pali, it a precious jewel that stays with you throughout life.
Ok good to know friend
pitakele wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:04 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm
"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless."
— Mv.I.23.5
Here they are not Arahants.....
Therefore Deathless does not Equate to Nibbana with residue. While they had attained the Deathless they did not attain Arahantship.
No doubt, Sāriputta had a very powerful 'opening of the Dhamma eye' and this prompted him to label it as the deathless. Despite his accumulated pāramî to be a future chief disciple, he had only realized Stream Winning at that point. Afaik, this is the only place in the Canon where a Stream Winner has made such a declaration. It is an anomaly. If you find more cases, please post the links. In comparison, there are many instances of Arahats speaking about the deathless.
Friend, actually you are the one who has to prove that the Ariyan Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Moggalanna were just rambling away and being loose-tongued and that this loose-tongue rambling was recited in unaltered form at the Council, you have to prove that it is an anomaly. Afaik the classical theravada position is that Deathless is attained by realization of 4 Noble Truths and knowledge of destruction of taints arises from it and all Ariya if taken as 4 individual types have realized the Four Noble Truths and the realization is referred to attainment of Eye Of Wisdom and seeing with Wisdom as it is the culmination of Wisdom Faculty...

What commentary are you citing there friend? It seems to contradict sutta pitaka.
9. “And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states [436] and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.
here explicitly refuted by words attributed to Tathagata as well MN64.

Another thing is that you seem to equate knowledge in pali with undestanding [access to] the Dhamma, i think that is wrong friend.
Having realized superhuman attainments or at least becoming a Faith or Dhamma-Follower is how one gains a footing in the Discipline and stream enterer is quite able to distinguish what is rightfully spoken from what is not even if it is not in pali. Luckily a discerning person quickly grasps the Dhamma as tongue perceives the taste of soup so there is no need to actually read all of the Sutta Pitaka for such one.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
The wanderers of other sects can not be expected to pose a question knowing of the non-made, therefore Sabbe Dhamma to them could only mean the created.
What do other sects have to with the matter? Dhamma is not for debating other sections (MN 22). "Sabbe Dhamma" was taught to Buddhists. The suttas are clear:

1. sabbe sankhara (created) anicca

2. sabbe sankhara (created) dukkha

3. sabbe dhamma (create + non-created) anatta
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
is based on a notion that if you perceive a tree that proves that the tree exists which is akin to the statement "I think therefore I am"
Not at all. Arahants perceive the continuous rise & fall of the five aggregates but do not perceive "I am" in those aggregates (MN 122).
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
F"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & mind-objects (dhamme). This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Nibbana is included in 'The All" as a mind-object. The is why the Pali is "dhamme".
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
Not to mention having to explain why the questions was not posed as "In what are the kusala Dhammas rooted?" and having to explain why the Answers in 10.58 apply to aggregates which are themselves can be explained to be all created phenomena (Sabbe Dhamma to a person outside of dispensation).
There are many suttas that say the aggregates are sankhara, as below:
Evaṃ vutte, therā bhikkhū āyasmantaṃ channaṃ etadavocuṃ: “rūpaṃ kho, āvuso channa, aniccaṃ; vedanā aniccā; saññā aniccā; saṅkhārā aniccā; viññāṇaṃ aniccaṃ. Rūpaṃ anattā; vedanā … saññā … saṅkhārā … viññāṇaṃ anattā. Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā; sabbe dhammā anattā”ti.

When this was said, the elder bhikkhus said to the Venerable Channa: “Form, friend Channa, is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, perception is impermanent, formations are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself, feeling is nonself, perception is nonself, formations are nonself, consciousness is nonself. All sankhara are impermanent; all dhamma are nonself.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.90/en/sujato
The above is the most basic Dhamma understanding.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:48 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:56 am
...
Thanks for finding that.

Here's a link to the PDF on Piya Tan's new site: http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmaf ... 3-piya.pdf
Kiṁ Mūlaka Sutta
The Discourse on “What is the Root?” | A 8.83/4:338
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:01 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 am
Friend, do you also think that Thanissaro has no pali knowledge, Ven. Nyanananda has no pali knowledge and Piya Tan has no pali knowledge?
The assumption that the people above have more correct Pali knowledge than pitakele is unsubstantiated. Since you yourself know next to nothing about Pali, you are not in a position to judge. Thus this above post is mere blind faith.
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:48 am
Thanks for finding that.

Here's a link to the PDF on Piya Tan's new site: http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmaf ... 3-piya.pdf
I think the views in the link have been thoroughly refuted. It seems Piya Tan was shown to be wrong. As was clearly demonstrated from other suttas; the dhammas in AN 10.58 only pertain to noble path factors.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by pitakele » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:03 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 am
What commentary are you citing there friend? It seems to contradict sutta pitaka.
Previously, I pasted the AN 10:58 Cy. text from the Android Tipitaka app, but have now found this link on the Chattha Sangāyana site

http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0404a.att20.xml

If you have it, please post a link for Bhante Ñānānanda's translation of this sutta
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
The wanderers of other sects can not be expected to pose a question knowing of the non-made, therefore Sabbe Dhamma to them could only mean the created.
What do other sects have to with the matter?
The context of AN10.58 makes it very important as those are answers to questions of other sects.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
is based on a notion that if you perceive a tree that proves that the tree exists which is akin to the statement "I think therefore I am"
Not at all. Arahants perceive the continuous rise & fall of the five aggregates but do not perceive "I am" in those aggregates (MN 122).
So what is your question?
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
F"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & mind-objects (dhamme). This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Nibbana is included in 'The All" as a mind-object. The is why the Pali is "dhamme".
Nibbana as a concept of intellect is included in the all of the Sabbe Sutta, however as an unltimate single reality it is not of the All and the All here obviously only describes the conditioned.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:46 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:56 pm
Not to mention having to explain why the questions was not posed as "In what are the kusala Dhammas rooted?" and having to explain why the Answers in 10.58 apply to aggregates which are themselves can be explained to be all created phenomena (Sabbe Dhamma to a person outside of dispensation).
There are many suttas that say the aggregates are sankhara.
Yes aggregates are Sankhara.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:01 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:31 am
Friend, do you also think that Thanissaro has no pali knowledge, Ven. Nyanananda has no pali knowledge and Piya Tan has no pali knowledge?
The assumption that the people above have more correct Pali knowledge than pitakele is unsubstantiated. Since you yourself know next to nothing about Pali, you are not in a position to judge. Thus this above post is blind faith.
You quoted a question and call it an assumption, this makes no sense at all.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:01 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:48 am
Thanks for finding that.

Here's a link to the PDF on Piya Tan's new site: http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmaf ... 3-piya.pdf
I think the views in the link have been thoroughly refuted.
Some people think the earth is flat.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:09 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 am
The context of AN10.58 makes it very important as those are answers to questions of other sects.
You are totally contradicting yourself because your view of AN 10.58 is dhamma means phenomena but must exclude Nibbana, which is imputing a perversion, as Thanissaro did.

My view is dhamma means path factors. Since path factors are sankhara (conditioned), there is no contradiction in my view nor the need to pervert the dhamma.
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 am
Nibbana as a concept of intellect is included in the all of the Sabbe Sutta, however as an unltimate single reality it is not of the All and the All here obviously only describes the conditioned.
Nibbana was known by the mind of the Buddha. It is not a concept and can only be known via the mind sense base.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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