The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

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rightviewftw
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The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm

I have long talked about this important discourse and want to keep talking about it because this is obvious incredibly important. For people unfamiliar i will show the different translations:
Thanissaro an10.58:
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bodhi an10.50:
(9) They culminate in the deathless.
These are the two main variants, now the word is kiṃogadhā
There is a related discourse in SN48.44 which goes as follows;
Thanissaro sn48.44:
"Lord, it's not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Now the word in the second discourse is not kiṃogadhā but it is amatogadhaṃ

What is interesting is that the Thanissaro's version has been removed from the SC website ever since the new version of the site rolled out and even tho Sujato has chosen to translate AN10.58 exactly the same way as Bodhi;
Sujato (an10.58):
They culminate in the deathless.
He does not follow Bodhi's translation of the SN 48.44, pinning it as;
Sujato sn48.44
“Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom, when developed and cultivated, culminate, finish, and end in the deathless.
I am asking people to post alternative translations from other languages and to weigh in on the semantics of the Pali. Mostly interested in the chinese to english and the Agama parallels of AN10.58 but other languages are of interest as well.

keep thread clean
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:46 pm

Russian traslator SV on SC has these versions;
SN48.44: Бессмертное своим основанием - Deathless as their basis[foundation]
AN10.58: Они достигают высшей точки в бессмертном. - They reach their highest point in the Deathless. (which i interperet to be closer to culmination)
This also seems inconsistent to me.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:10 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 am
Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes for AN 10.58:

A Chinese parallel, MĀ 113 (at T I 602c 1–16 ), makes the following assertions:
“All things are rooted in desire; all come together in contact; all converge on
feeling; all originate from attention; all are stopped by mindful-
ness (see Sn 1035); all are headed by concentration; wisdom is
above all; liberation is the truth (or core) of all; all have nibbāna
as their consummation.”

Interestingly, MĀ 113 continues (at T I 602c 17–28 ) with a passage that in AN correponds to the next sutta, 10:59, though rather than assure the monk who practices
in such a way one of two fruits, it states that he will definitely
attain arahantship.
Imo given that Liberation leads to knowing the Deathless by means of dispassion and cessation this makes the Deathless the foundation/basis rather than Culmination of the phenomena.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn45.7
...
When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers[2] comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.

"Regarding this knowledge of destruction, I declare that there is a supporting condition without which it does not arise...[3] What is this supporting condition? Liberation...
...
"Thus, monks, Ignorance is the supporting condition for the (kamma-) formations [etc. to] Birth. Birth for Suffering, Suffering for Faith, Faith for Joy, Joy for Delight, Delight for Tranquillity, Tranquillity for Happiness, Happiness for Concentration, Concentration for Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are, Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are for Disenchantment, Disenchantment for Dispassion, Dispassion for Liberation, Liberation for Knowledge of the destruction of the cankers."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"Now, as long as I did not have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people. But when I did have direct knowledge of the fourfold round with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening in this cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans & contemplatives, its royalty & common people.

"The fourfold round in what way? I had direct knowledge of form... of the origination of form... of the cessation of form... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of form.

"I had direct knowledge of feeling...

"I had direct knowledge of perception...

"I had direct knowledge of fabrications...

"I had direct knowledge of consciousness... of the origination of consciousness... of the cessation of consciousness... of the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness.

"And what is form? The four great existents[1] and the form derived from them: this is called form. From the origination of nutriment comes the origination of form. From the cessation of nutriment comes the cessation of form. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of form, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In other words what is important to keep in mind is that The Four Noble Truths are Noble Truths of Dukkha, they are the truths of suffering, they are not the truth of the Deathless.
1. Suffering
2. Origin of Suffering
3. Cessation of Suffering
4. Path to cessation of Suffering
Therefore it is wrong to say that Suffering Culminates in the Deathless because Deathless is not Suffering. In other words the Path to the Deathless is not the Deathless.

imho.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by pitakele » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:27 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm
Thanissaro an10.58:
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To me, this is an incorrect translation. Amatogadhā is usually 'immersing, diving, plunging, merging in the deathless'.

Regarding the importance you place on this sutta, I would be interested to hear your understanding of 'amata'.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:30 pm

pitakele wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:27 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm
Thanissaro an10.58:
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
To me, this is an incorrect translation. Amatogadhā is usually 'immersing, diving, plunging, merging in the deathless'.

Regarding the importance you place on this sutta, I would be interested to hear your understanding of 'amata'.
I can't comment on the pali, i've no idea. If you do please tell.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by pitakele » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:35 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:30 pm

I can't comment on the pali, i've no idea. If you do please tell.
Sorry, I should have included 'deathless'. I was interested in your understanding of this, vis-a-vis your interest in this sutta.
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:45 pm

pitakele wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:35 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:30 pm

I can't comment on the pali, i've no idea. If you do please tell.
Sorry, I should have included 'deathless'. I was interested in your understanding of this, vis-a-vis your interest in this sutta.
How i undestand the meaning of Deathless? I understand the term to essentially have the Non-made as it's referrent but being used differently than the term non-made. Used differently because it seems that the term was around before the Buddha used it but it's meaning was unclear since it remained unattained. However it's existence was being postulated as a persistently Deathless element of reality. What makes me believe that the term was around is that when Sariputta attained it and met Moggalanna prior to their ordination and before Moggalanna had heard the Dhamma he asked Sariputta whether he had attained it, also the nature of the discourse of AN10.58 which is given as an answer to questions of people from other sects suggests that the term was around outside of Buddhist circles.

My interest in this Sutta stems from disagreement with views expressed by Bhikkhu Bodhi on several points and pertaining to the attainment of the path and in particular. Also "All dhammas culminate in the Deathless" it just seems non-sensical to me, i would go along with discernment culminating in the Deathless but all Dhammas, that just doesn't make sense.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm
I have long talked about this important discourse and want to keep talking about it because this is obvious incredibly important. For people unfamiliar i will show the different translations:
Thanissaro an10.58:
"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bodhi an10.50:
(9) They culminate in the deathless.
The suttas only say supramundane wholesome path factors gain footing in the deathless; as you yourself quoted from the suttas, below:
Thanissaro sn48.44:
"Lord, it's not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm

Now the word in the second discourse is not kiṃogadhā but it is amatogadhaṃ
It appears to be the same word, namely, gadhā.

Kiṃo = how? or what?

amato = deathless.

amato + gadhaṃ = footing + deathless

kiṃo + gadhā = what/where + footing
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm
I am asking people to post alternative translations from other languages...
What is occurring on this thread is a quibble over the word gadhā.
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm
What is interesting is that the Thanissaro's version has been removed from the SC website ever since the new version of the site rolled out and even tho Sujato has chosen to translate AN10.58 exactly the same way as Bodhi;
Sujato (an10.58):
They culminate in the deathless.
VBB previously translated as "merge".
All things merge in the Deathless.

Nibbāna is their culmination.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238_Nyanap ... --III.html
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm
He does not follow Bodhi's translation of the SN 48.44, pinning it as;
Sujato sn48.44
“Sir, in this case I don’t rely on faith in the Buddha’s claim that the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom, when developed and cultivated, culminate, finish, and end in the deathless.
I trust we will find these translators are often inconsistent; contradicting themselves. They are obviously just guessing. It is not wise to take them as authorities. Jesus said: "No teacher is greater than his disciple". Lost students follow lost teachers.

The two relevant words VBB translated the same (previously & currently) are gadhā & pariyosānā. It is important to know VBB was under the influence of the Ajahn Brahm/Brahmali/Sujato sect when translating his new AN.

pariyosānā = completion or final end; such as in the phrase "maranapariyosānām me jivitam" - "our lives have death as their completion" or MN 29 & MN 30 "akuppā cetovimutti brahmacariyaṃsāraṃ pariyosānan - unshakeable freedom of mind is heartwood and final end/completion of holy life". The English word "culmination" appears synonymous with pariyosānā.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:14 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 pm
pariyosānā = completion or final end; such as in the phrase "maranapariyosānām me jivitam" - "our lives have death as their completion" or MN 29 & MN 30 "akuppā cetovimutti brahmacariyaṃsāraṃ pariyosānan - unshakeable freedom of mind is heartwood and final end/completion of holy life". The English word "culmination" appears synonymous with pariyosānā.
We might find Sujato generally avoids discussion of here-&-now Nibbana with residue and inclines to emphasise Nibbana without residue thus the bent (namati) of Sujato appears to be the word "final end" for pariyosānā. Where as here-&-now Nibbana with residue adherents would prefer the term "completion or fulfillment" for pariyosānā.

:alien:

Back to gādha:
fire and air find no footing.
tejo vāyo na gādhati;

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.27/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.27/en/bodhi
So long as a person fails to gain a footing in the river,
Yāva na gādhaṃ labhati nadīsu,

https://suttacentral.net/sn2.5/en/sujato
Compare to AN 10.58, which is gadhā from ogadha
ogadha
masculine
firm footing in water, firm ground.

Concise Pali English Dictionary
ogadha
adjective
included; immersed.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
ogadha
adjective
immersed, merging into, diving or plunging into. Only in two main phrases viz.; Amatogadha & Nibbānogadha; diving into N. Besides these only in jagat’ogadha steeped in the world SN.i.186.
However, gādha appears to be the same as gadhā:
ogādha1
adjective
immersed, entered; firm, firmly footed or grounded in (-˚), spelt ogāḷha Mil.1 (abhidhamma-vinay˚). Cp. BSk. avagādhaśrāddha of deep faith Divy.268. Cp. pariyogāḷha.

Sk. avagāḍha; ava + gādha2

ogādha2
neuter
a firm place, firm ground, only in cpd. ogādhappatta having gained a sure footing AN.iii.297 sq.

ava + gādha2

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/define/og%C4%81dha
I think Bhikkhu Bodhi probably might have had the correct translation when he was a student of Nanamoli:
All dhamma merge in the Deathless.

Nibbāna is their culmination.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238_Nyanap ... --III.html
When I ran meditation retreats in Thailand, I wrote the AN 10.58 above/below on a public white board because it was inspiring however I struggled to fully understand it. The Abbott said to me Ajahn Buddhadasa did a [different] translation of it however I never asked for that translation.
All things are rooted in desire. They come to actual existence through attention, originate from contact, and converge on feelings. The foremost of all things is concentration. All things are mastered by mindfulness. Their peak is wisdom, their essence liberation. All things merge in the Deathless, and Nibbāna is their culmination.”

47.Since the Deathless and Nibbāna are synonymous, to justify the distinction between them here, A-a identifies “the Deathless” with the Nibbāna-element with a residue left, and “Nibbāna” with the Nibbāna-element with no residue left. See Ch.IV, n.10.

https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238_Nyanap ... I.html#N47

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:32 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:37 pm
He does not follow Bodhi's translation of the SN 48.44
As previously mentioned, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations vary:

VBB's MN was published in 1995, which used "mentality-materiality" for "nama-rupa" and "end" for "pariyosānā" and previously used "merge" for "gadha".

VBB's SN was published in 1999, which used "name-form" for "nama-rupa" and "ground" for "gadha" and "final goal" for "pariyosānā".

VBB's AN was published in 2012, which used "name-form" for "nama-rupa" and "culminate" for "gadha" and "consummation" for "pariyosānā".

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:19 pm

First of all thank you friend.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 pm
The suttas only say supramundane wholesome path factors gain footing in the deathless; as you yourself quoted from the suttas, below:
Friend, as i read it, it says that the five spiritual faulties gain footing in the Deathless, i don't see anything about the "supramundane path factors"nor that only the five spiritual faculties are gaining footing in the Deathless.

As a matter of fact friend, given that we agree that the Sutta say that some Dhammas(spiritual faulties) are gaining footing in the Deathless and AN10.58 also uses the word gadhā from ogadha in regards to All Dhamma which would include the Five Spiritual Faculties, saying that All Dhammas Inluding the Five Spiritual Faculties are gadha in the Deathless.

Friend, on what ground do you then proclaim that only the five spiritual faculties gain footing in the Deathless and not all the Dhammas, in what would the other Dhammas be gaining ground and what would be their basis?

It seems to me friend that the Sutta are consistently saying that Five Spiritual Faculties are gadha in the Deathless and that same goes for all the Dhammas.

Also thanks actually i messed up and the wording of the Rooted Discourse, they are the same;

amatogadhā sabbe dhammā - AN.10.58
saddhindriyaṃ … pe … paññindriyaṃ bhāvitaṃ bahulīkataṃ amatogadhaṃ hoti amataparāyaṇaṃ amatapariyosānaṃ.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 pm
I trust we will find these translators are often inconsistent; contradicting themselves. They are obviously just guessing. It is not wise to take them as authorities.
I am hesitant to paint them all with the same brush. However it should be evident that some translators take liberties and are inconsistent in very important spots. I would say that i suspect that some might actually be going out of their way to legitimize their views by misrepresenting the Pali.

With all due respect, when it comes to "having as ground" and "culminating in", the expressions are semantically unrelated and this is not a minor difference, there a world of a difference, literally. This is also dealing with the most important Dhamma, the Deathless and all the other Dhammas, literally.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:40 pm

Here is why i think these discourses are of a particular interest to Bhikkhu Bodhi;
https://www.sbinstitute.com/sites/defau ... evised.pdf
BAW: I don’t doubt that these comments about nibbāna correctly reflect the Theravāda view. At the same time, unless my memory misleads me, there is a statement in the Pāli canon in which the Buddha states that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra. Can you identify that statement for me? Some might interpret that as implying that nibbāna does indeed have a cosmological function, though it does not give rise to a creator God.

BB: I don’t recall any such statement in the Pali Canon, and it would be inconsistent with everything else that is said there. Perhaps you are thinking of the well known passage in the Udāna §73, which says that “if there were no unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no release from what is born, come to be, made, and conditioned would be discerned here, but because there is an unborn (etc.) a release from what is born (etc.) is discerned here” (No c’etaṃ, bhikkhave, abhavissa ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ, nayidha jātassa bhūtassa katassa saṅkhatassa nissaraṇaṃ paññāyetha. Yasmā ca kho, bhikkhave, atthi ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ, tasmā jātassa bhūtassa katassa saṅkhatassa nissaraṇaṃ paññāyatī’’ti.)

BAW: Yes, indeed, that is the passage I had in mind. You write that it would be inconsistent with everything else said in the Pali canon to assert that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra. But what can the “unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned” be referring to if not to nibbāna? And what can “what is born, come to be, made, condition” refer to if not to saṃsāra? I very much doubt that the Buddha was simply referring to the semantic necessity of there being the unborn for there to be the born, in the same manner that there must be non-apples in order for there to be apples.

BB 06-01: Of course the “unborn … unconditioned” is nibbāna and the “born … conditioned” refers to everything within saṃsāra. But it seems you misread my translation of the passage. The passage does not say, “If there were no unconditioned, there would be no conditioned,” but “If there were no unconditioned, no release from the conditioned would be discerned here.” That is, the passage is not saying that the existence of saṃsāra depends on the existence of nibbāna, but that liberation from saṃsāra depends on the existence of nibbāna. I read this as saying that the existence of nibbāna—as an unconditioned dimension that is forever accessible—is a necessary condition for the prospect of release.
i find this to be wrong and even tho it is hard come come up with a good analogy somewhat similar to saying that the 1st jhana could exist without the other jhanas or that mass could exist without energy. The discourses in this thread disprove the underlined statement imo. There are other discourses such as mn140 which clearly say that one could say that there are two elements;
“But, venerable sir, might there be another way in which a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements?”

“There might be, Ānanda. There are, Ānanda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When he knows and sees these two elements, a bhikkhu can be called skilled in the elements.”
It does not say that there is the conditioned element and the escape from the conditioned, no it does not say that there is the conditioned and the escape from the conditioned.

one would think that the unconditioned element being one of the two is quite fundamental to the nature of the system...
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:47 pm

pitakele wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:27 pm
...
To me, this is an incorrect translation. Amatogadhā is usually 'immersing, diving, plunging, merging in the deathless'.
...
As to what regards the proposed translation of Dhammas immersing, diving, plunging or merging in or into the deathless. This is basically like sayng that either:
1. Khandas become the Deathless in case of merging into
2. Khrandas enter the deathless

#1 would makes no sense because what is said to cease does not really merge and there is no Support for this anywhere else in the Sutta and the Aggregates are never explained to become the Deathless or becoming the same as Deathless, The Deathless is unconditioned.

#2 Also easy to disprove because the Non-Made is a singleness and there is no entering in or out;
The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — perceives earth as earth. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.

"He perceives water as water... fire as fire... wind as wind[1] ... beings as beings... gods as gods...Pajapati as Pajapati...Brahma as Brahma... the luminous gods as luminous gods... the gods of refulgent glory as gods of refulgent glory... the gods of abundant fruit as the gods of abundant fruit... the Conqueror as the Conqueror[2] ... the dimension of the infinitude of space as the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness as the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness as the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception as the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception[3] ... the seen as the seen... the heard as the heard... the sensed as the sensed... the cognized as the cognized[4] ... singleness as singleness... multiplicity as multiplicity[5] ... the All as the All[6] ...

"He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.[7] Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.
Another thing is that it seems that even if one makes support for #1 by translating AN10.58 and sn48.44 as culminating in then one has to consistently translate it as culmination and the passage;
fire and air find no footing.
tejo vāyo na gādhati;
would also be affected and would not make any sense.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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cappuccino
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:02 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:47 pm
would makes no sense because what is said to cease does not really merge
consciousness remains in the state (of Nirvana) from earlier
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:04 am

RV

Could you clarify whether it is BB or the other person who you think is being outrageous? viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32419&p=481446#p481438 The other oerson sounds confused to me...

Mike

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