Off-topic posts from: enlightenment in theravada

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Off-topic posts from: enlightenment in theravada

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:34 am

Theravada is unique, unlike Zen & Hinduism

Zen doesn't know Theravada
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:12 am, edited 4 times in total.

Saengnapha
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:36 am

dudette wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:23 am
There is one more thing which puzzles me in Theravada Buddhism.
Normally, Enlightenment is described in Buddhism the same way as in Hinduism (mokcha) which is just "The Sphere of Neither Perception nor Non-
Perception" or some kind of state of mind which is reached via meditation. OK!
But then in Theravada, I have noticed that there are two "different" understanding of enlightenment. The first one is like in zen, hinduism and other religions (via deep meditation you reach the enlightenment); however, the second one is something like Walpola Rahula, Jiddu Krishnamurt and Stoics said that enlightenment is not just state of mind which is achieved via meditation, but actually transformation of your mind/personality which is free of desires and passions.

I am not sure what to think about this :(
I mean am I wrong about this?
Dudette,

There are many myths in place in all religions and philosophies. Those who question and penetrate these myths are free of them and don't perpetuate them. The only answer to your questions is for you to investigate what is true or not and not accept what you are told or read about. You don't have to adapt/adopt a party line or be anything to investigate all of this. Wishing you the best.

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cappuccino
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:48 am

different teachings :juggling:

Garrib
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Garrib » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:37 am
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:34 am
Theravada is unique, unlike Zen, & unlike Hinduism
What a load of shit. :shrug:
cappucino's post can be read in (at least) two different ways.

1) Theravada is unique - that is to say, it is unlike (not identical to) Zen and/or Hinduism.

2) Theravada is unique, whereas Zen and Hinduism are NOT unique.

I'm not sure which (if any) of these two cappuccino meant, but if I had to guess, I would choose option #1 (which is the more charitable assumption, I think).

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cappuccino
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:12 am

each particular teaching has its own kind of enlightenment

Zen could be similar to Hinduism, yet is never similar to Theravada

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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Garrib » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:42 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:22 am
Garrib wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:37 am


What a load of shit. :shrug:
cappucino's post can be read in (at least) two different ways.

1) Theravada is unique - that is to say, it is unlike (not identical to) Zen and/or Hinduism.

2) Theravada is unique, whereas Zen and Hinduism are NOT unique.

I'm not sure which (if any) of these two cappuccino meant, but if I had to guess, I would choose option #1 (which is the more charitable assumption, I think).
Either choice is a load of shit. Why do you even consider it? This is someone who is stuck in his own beliefs, ideas. They have nothing to do with enlightenment and truth. Nothing.
I was just hoping to encourage a more congenial discussion.

Out of curiosity, in your opinion, does freedom from ill will/aversion have anything to do with enlightenment?

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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:59 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:22 am
Garrib wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:37 am


What a load of shit. :shrug:
cappucino's post can be read in (at least) two different ways.

1) Theravada is unique - that is to say, it is unlike (not identical to) Zen and/or Hinduism.

2) Theravada is unique, whereas Zen and Hinduism are NOT unique.

I'm not sure which (if any) of these two cappuccino meant, but if I had to guess, I would choose option #1 (which is the more charitable assumption, I think).
Either choice is a load of shit. Why do you even consider it? This is someone who is stuck in his own beliefs, ideas. They have nothing to do with enlightenment and truth. Nothing.
As usual, you are very clear on what you think things are not, but offer nothing as to what they might actually be.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:06 am

Garrib wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:42 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:22 am
Garrib wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 am


cappucino's post can be read in (at least) two different ways.

1) Theravada is unique - that is to say, it is unlike (not identical to) Zen and/or Hinduism.

2) Theravada is unique, whereas Zen and Hinduism are NOT unique.

I'm not sure which (if any) of these two cappuccino meant, but if I had to guess, I would choose option #1 (which is the more charitable assumption, I think).
Either choice is a load of shit. Why do you even consider it? This is someone who is stuck in his own beliefs, ideas. They have nothing to do with enlightenment and truth. Nothing.
I was just hoping to encourage a more congenial discussion.

Out of curiosity, in your opinion, does freedom from ill will/aversion have anything to do with enlightenment?
Do you really think cappucino is congenial?
It seems that the enlightened person cannot have ill will or aversion. It doesn't come with the territory, evidently. It is not through good intentions that one is enlightened. The dualities don't survive in an enlightened one.

Saengnapha
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:09 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:59 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:22 am
Garrib wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 am


cappucino's post can be read in (at least) two different ways.

1) Theravada is unique - that is to say, it is unlike (not identical to) Zen and/or Hinduism.

2) Theravada is unique, whereas Zen and Hinduism are NOT unique.

I'm not sure which (if any) of these two cappuccino meant, but if I had to guess, I would choose option #1 (which is the more charitable assumption, I think).
Either choice is a load of shit. Why do you even consider it? This is someone who is stuck in his own beliefs, ideas. They have nothing to do with enlightenment and truth. Nothing.
As usual, you are very clear on what you think things are not, but offer nothing as to what they might actually be.
This is simply because the truth of things is ineffable. No one can offer this. So much has been written about is or isn't, it's useless to think along these lines. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to be obtuse or elusive. There is simply no answer for some questions like what is enlightenment?

Garrib
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Garrib » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:41 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:09 am
There is simply no answer for some questions like what is enlightenment?
The destruction of greed, the destruction of hatred, and the destruction of delusion?

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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:55 am

Garrib wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:41 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:09 am
There is simply no answer for some questions like what is enlightenment?
The destruction of greed, the destruction of hatred, and the destruction of delusion?
Those are the effects. It doesn't really say what enlightenment is. And, the effects are what you have been told happens so it is not really your experience.

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cappuccino
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:28 pm

Wouldn't that just mean the cessation of experience?

yes basically.
basically that is annihilation ism

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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:13 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:28 pm
Wouldn't that just mean the cessation of experience?

yes basically.
basically that is annihilation ism
no you are taking things out of context and it is actually rather annoying at this point. It is obvious that i explained cessation of experience as the cessation of Khandas and Nama&Rupa in this case. I explained Awakening to the truth as cessation of the Aggregates, cessation of the experience of a being, If you think that is wrong then you should give up that wrong view. I talked about cessation of experience in conventional sense of the word experience rather than experience in whatever terms experience may be postulated, such as experience outside of time, experience non-dependent on the duality of the experienced and the experiencer, non-conditioned experience.

It seems like all you do is accuse anybody who is not an eternalist of being an annihilationist whilst yourself being unable to string 10 words together and telling people that they cannot die.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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cappuccino
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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:34 pm

eternal ism is the view of same identity (err)

eternity is another matter (Nirvana is everlasting)

annihilation ism deserves rebuke

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Re: enlightenment in theravada

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:49 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:34 pm
eternal ism is the view of same identity

eternity is another matter (Nirvana is everlasting)
here we go again...
appavatta - non-persisting
akālika - timeless or not-time
asamuppannaṃ - beyond time not everlasting
dhuva - sure, stable, constant not everlasting

relying on disputed mistranslations to uphold your pernicious view postulating duration in the timeless don't claim to have The Tathagata as your teacher.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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