What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:16 pm
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
Atma Brahman
Brahman = consciousness.

The content of consciousness is inconstant.

Inconstancy is stressful.
Its to simple to say that Brahman is consciousness, the word consciousness gets applied to many things and eventually losing all meaning

Brahman means always expanding without limits and is not restrained or conditioned by anything.

Brahman cannot be seen heard or cognized, it is above consciousness as we ordinarily experience/

Another term for Brahman is Ajatasatru, which means without any opposition or enemy, it has no conflict so will not come under suffering.
Last edited by markandeya on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:30 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:41 am
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:28 am
Buddha did not say that there is no self.
What about this? :shrug:
Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
SarathW wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:28 am
Living Buddha's old Dependently Originated consciousness still there to experience Nibbana.
Since the Buddha was free from ignorance, how could Dependently Originated consciousness arise? :shrug:
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:39 am
Yes, im aware that he never says this. As when asked, he didn't answer.
This only most notably happened once (SN 44.10), when speaking to a confused person. However, in SN 44.10, the subject of "anatta" was not mentioned by or with the confused person.
TRobinson465 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:39 am
but reading through some of the anatta threads its apparent many people on this forum interpret the phrase "Sabbe dhamma anatta" "All phenomenon are not self" to imply that there is no self.
The suttas report the Buddha said what is a "disease" and what is "suffering" the world calls "self". It appears the Buddha never said there was a "self". Instead, it appears the Buddha only said there is the arising of "disease" ("mental illness") and "suffering". If a mentally ill person believes they are Julius Ceasar or Jesus Christ, would you affirm that "self"?

This world is burning.
Afflicted by contact,
it calls disease a 'self.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

SN 12.15 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Why now do you assume 'a being'? [' a self']
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
Agree.
Ultimate sense everything is empty.
Is Nibbana empty?
:thinking:
Since the Buddha was free from ignorance, how could Dependently Originated consciousness arise? :shrug:
Because Dependently Originated body still there.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:35 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
Buddha did not talk directly about any ultimate reality
:shock:
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
anatta is a denial of 5 skandhas
:shock:
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
or [not] identifying with the 5 skandas
Partially. Anatta is also ultimate reality.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 pm
Translating Atma as an individual soul is neither in Buddhism .. it was introduced by Christian doctrines.
Maybe (since atta is more about mistaken identity rather than about a metaphysical soul that reincarnates from life to life, as portrayed in the Gita). Buddha was concerned with dukkha & its cessation rather than about metaphysics. Atta is not only not true or real but it is also inherent in suffering. Such is the lie of Atman. Atman is not only a delusion but it is dukkha.
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:38 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm
so will not come under suffering.
I used to practice Advaita.

Advaita, is unsatisfying, stressful, and impermanent.

markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:51 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:38 pm
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm
so will not come under suffering.
I used to practice Advaita.

Advaita, is unsatisfying, stressful, and impermanent.
There is no practice in advaita

Can you tell me what you used to practice as a matter of interest

It belongs within a system or is the mature fruit of sad dharshan or six visions of reality ending in Vedanta which is advaita and Adi Shankaras commentaries the main Upanishads.



The advaita traditions are combination of Bhakti and Jnana, one needs to sit near the sadhu that will induce Bhakti and from there Jnana arises spontaneously. Its a living tradition.

I would agree that the solipsistic approach that is being spoken and taught in neo advaita would bring stress. I get stress talking with Neo Advaitist what to speak of trying to adopt their extensions of the ego and becoming the All and The One, and everything is an extension of themselves :thinking:

Few know what real advaita is and is only really for the few as it cannot be imitated. Advaita means beyond any qualities so suffering or elation doesnt exist.

The best translations to date of advaita into English is by HH dayananda swami and mostly its lineage teaching or a living tradition. Im not associated with him but have some good friends from Sringeri

I would always advise to with stick what inspires you and not comment on what is not understood.

:anjali:

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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:00 pm

I understand the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj


Ramana and Nisargadatta are presently in the realms of infinite consciousness
and infinite nothingness.

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DooDoot
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:01 pm

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm
Brahman = consciousness.
Consciousness ("cognition/experiencing") = consciousness = a natural element (dhatu)

Brahman = a word = a name
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm
Inconstancy is stressful.
Inconstancy cannot bring happiness; is unsatisfying; is unsatisfactory. Inconstancy is not necessarily stressful.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm
Its to simple to say that Brahman is consciousness, the word consciousness gets applied to many things and eventually losing all meaning
No. It is the opposite. "Consciousness" is a merely a translation but "vinanna" is clearly defined in the Pali suttas as experiencing via the sense organs. "Vinanna" is not ambiguous in the Pali suttas.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm
Brahman means always expanding without limits and is not restrained or conditioned by anything.
In Buddhism, words such as "The Unconditioned" or "Non-Compounding" (asankhata) mean not restrained or conditioned by anything. "Brahman" is a name or label that does not inherently describe what is naturally/functionally real. In SN 22.79 there is the verse:
Why is it called "feeling" - because it feels; why is it called "perception" - because it perceives; why is it called "consciousness" - because it cognises; experiences.
Similarly, why is it called "Nibbana" - because it is cool; without heat.
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:43 pm
Brahman cannot be seen heard or cognized, it is above consciousness as we ordinarily experience
Then its unrelated to Buddhism. In Buddhism, NIbbana is the supreme thing; and Nibbana is an "ayatana" or sense object known by consciousness.
SunWuKong wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:35 pm
You’re asking me to walk you through the Sutta Pitaka?
:candle:

markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:08 pm

Doodoot your just serving your own purpose and giving your own translations

Are you a reincarnation of the imperialists :) you share many of the same traits, maybe this is all caught up in the continuum :sage:


With Metta


:anjali:

markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:09 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:00 pm
I understand the teachings of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj


Ramana and Nisargadatta are presently in the realms of infinite consciousness
and infinite nothingness.
i doubt they would agree

With metta

Enjoy your evening

:anjali:

markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:14 pm

====

This is from Kevatta Sutta :

Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end, luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"

Note [1] Points to MN 49 and in a note in MN49 vinnanam anidassanam was explained.

This is note 9 from MN 49

Consciousness without surface (viññanam anidassanam): This term appears to be related to the following image from SN 12.64:
"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"
"On the western wall, lord."
"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"
"On the ground, lord."
"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"
"On the water, lord."
"And if there is no water, where does it land?"
"It does not land, lord."
"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

if you can learn some of the Sanskrit it really can help

Some research if only reading is your tool for dharma can be done via pre 10th India.

With metta

:anjali:
Last edited by retrofuturist on Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Off-topic Upanishad sources removed

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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:22 am

markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:14 pm
This is Atman and this has to be realized.
Buddha, alone of all teachers and gurus, taught total and complete selfless ness.

TRobinson465
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:43 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:22 am
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:14 pm
This is Atman and this has to be realized.
Buddha, alone of all teachers and gurus, taught total and complete selfless ness.
I dont think the Buddha alone taught this. In, SN 44.10 he mentions another group of people.
"Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .than.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

markandeya
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by markandeya » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:27 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:20 am
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:22 am
markandeya wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:14 pm
This is Atman and this has to be realized.
Buddha, alone of all teachers and gurus, taught total and complete selfless ness.
Yes just like Jesus was the only way, that had a great effect on the world with their cultural synthesis and tolerance and understanding of others ways that seemed different from their own.

:anjali:

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Sam Vara
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:43 am

Abusive posts and material removed.

Contributors, please remember that abusive language disrupts discussion and will not be allowed.

Saengnapha
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Re: What experiences happiness in Nibbana?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:13 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:43 am
Abusive posts and material removed.

Contributors, please remember that abusive language disrupts discussion and will not be allowed.
To me, when someone says something like this:
Buddha, alone of all teachers and gurus, taught total and complete selfless ness', this is abusive. Wake up. :tantrum:

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